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  #41  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:19 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
I can disagree with anything I want.

I think its dumb to include the northeast in the definition of rustbelt. Websters adds words to its dictionary every year that I think are idiotic and shouldn't be there.
lolok dude.
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  #42  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:28 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
lolok dude.
LOL k dud, I'm not arguing about the definition of water We are talking about a colloquial phrase invented in the last 40 years based on another colloquial phrase invented in the last 100 years.

It is loosely defined and I disagree with including the Northeast in that definition. Webster's doesn't control the English language, it isn't the arbiter of any definition let alone the one for "Rust Belt"

Hell it isnt even a complete list of all English words and does not claim to be nor could be because English is an extremely organic language actually. Really interesting stuff if you care to look into it.

I explained exactly why I think Rust Belt should be the midwest in an earlier post and I dont think my opinion was unreasonable.

So yeah, I dont like that definition, and LOL I am allowed to say so.
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  #43  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
I find that definition far to expansive to be useful. Basically any city with pre-war industry? In my opinion rust belt is very specifically Midwest (great lakes specifically) Industrial cities and towns. Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Erie. Mostly everything along the Ohio river etc. Hell even Scranton could probably count.

Thats not to say there wasn't industry cities and towns in the Northeast and they arent also rusty due to moving industries and changing economic conditions. I think of the rust belt as much geographically (probably even more so) than I do as a social or Economic classification.

There is pre war industry that became "rusty" all over the country even in Washington, California, and the deep south but I would never consider those places part of the rust belt, and I don't consider anything on the Atlantic coast to be rust belt.
I get what you’re saying. “Rust Belt” is a term open to many different interpretations, which vary based on one’s primary defining characteristic of the term. Is it geographic? Economic? Social?

It’s all of them in a certain combination. So that leaves it open to individual interpretation. Is Chicago rust belt? Some would say no way, while others would say hell yes. Just like Philly.

It’s probably become more associated (maybe even interchangeable) with the “midwest” in the national consciousness. Because we hear about it more often applied to cities in the Great Lakes and Midwest regions in recent times, but that’s a rather narrow way of looking at it overall. It’s really opinion though, and will vary based on where someone is from, where they grew up, etc.

As someone who grew up in the fucking buckle of the rust belt, equidistant from Buffalo, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh, I know it when I see it. And Baltimore 100% qualifies, just like Detroit 100% qualifies. They’re very different and they’re very much the same. But that’s just my opinion. I don’t think there’s a true right or wrong answer in all cases to this. I mean, “rust belt” is a term based on broad pigeonholing as it is. It’s not entirely quantifiable.
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  #44  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
LOL k dud, I'm not arguing about the definition of water We are talking about a colloquial phrase invented in the last 40 years based on another colloquial phrase invented in the last 100 years.

It is loosely defined and I disagree with including the Northeast in that definition. Webster's doesn't control the English language, it isn't the arbiter of any definition let alone the one for "Rust Belt"

Hell it isnt even a complete list of all English words and does not claim to be nor could be because English is an extremely organic language actually. Really interesting stuff if you care to look into it.

I explained exactly why I think Rust Belt should be the midwest in an earlier post and I dont think my opinion was unreasonable.

So yeah, I dont like that definition, and LOL I am allowed to say so.
The term is pretty well defined. Everyone else is using it according to the definition. You are not. End of story.
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  #45  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
I can disagree with anything I want.

I think its dumb to include the northeast in the definition of rustbelt. Websters adds words to its dictionary every year that I think are idiotic and shouldn't be there.
I'm from upstate New York (northeast), that region has been dubbed apart of the rust belt all my life. I'm 46.
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  #46  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
LOL k dud, I'm not arguing about the definition of water We are talking about a colloquial phrase invented in the last 40 years based on another colloquial phrase invented in the last 100 years.

It is loosely defined and I disagree with including the Northeast in that definition. Webster's doesn't control the English language, it isn't the arbiter of any definition let alone the one for "Rust Belt"

Hell it isnt even a complete list of all English words and does not claim to be nor could be because English is an extremely organic language actually. Really interesting stuff if you care to look into it.

I explained exactly why I think Rust Belt should be the midwest in an earlier post and I dont think my opinion was unreasonable.

So yeah, I dont like that definition, and LOL I am allowed to say so.
I do wonder... what is your definition of “Northeast” then?
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  #47  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:48 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I do wonder... what is your definition of “Northeast” then?
Pretty much everything between the Appalachians and the coast but north of dc

New England is part of that but also has the sub designation of New England

Not like any of these definitions are hard and clearly defined it’s just a general term of reference
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  #48  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I'm from upstate New York (northeast), that region has been dubbed apart of the rust belt all my life. I'm 46.
Right. Upstate NY is without a doubt rust belt. I mean it really defines the term.
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  #49  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I'm from upstate New York (northeast), that region has been dubbed apart of the rust belt all my life. I'm 46.
Yes and I said I think the upstate New York cities on (or near) Lake Erie and Ontario would be rust belt but I wouldn’t think of nyc as rust belt
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  #50  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
The term is pretty well defined. Everyone else is using it according to the definition. You are not. End of story.
I’m not going to entertain your arbitrary confinement of the discussion.

End of this discussion.
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  #51  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
I’m not going to entertain your arbitrary confinement of the discussion.

End of this discussion.
Do you even know what confinement means? lol. I know you're struggling with definitions...
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  #52  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Pretty much everything between the Appalachians and the coast but north of dc

New England is part of that but also has the sub designation of New England

Not like any of these definitions are hard and clearly defined it’s just a general term of reference
Ok, but that eliminates a lot of what is actually the Northeast.

And there are definitely many cities within your described Northeast region that are undeniably “rust belt”.

Scranton, Reading, Schenectady, Allentown, Bethlehem, Harrisburg, Utica, Springfield, among others.
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  #53  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 9:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Yes and I said I think the upstate New York cities on (or near) Lake Erie and Ontario would be rust belt but I wouldn’t think of nyc as rust belt
NYC occupies a tiny portion of NYS but almost all of the state was/ is Rust Belt. NYC due to its sheer size and diversity escaped the plight every other New York city suffered. Chicago did as well in the Midwest. Most of Upstate is not Great Lakes; Utica, Syracuse, Albany, Schenectady, Binghamton, etc. Buffalo and Rochester are the two Great Lakes cities.
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  #54  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
NYC occupies a tiny portion of NYS but almost all of the state was/ is Rust Belt. NYC due to its sheer size and diversity escaped the plight every other New York city suffered. Chicago did as well in the Midwest. Most of Upstate is not Great Lakes; Utica, Syracuse, Albany, Schenectady, Binghamton, etc. Buffalo and Rochester are the two Great Lakes cities.
Yeah totally.

Upstate NY is one of the places that epitomizes the term.
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  #55  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
NYC occupies a tiny portion of NYS but almost all of the state was/ is Rust Belt. NYC due to its sheer size and diversity escaped the plight every other New York city suffered. Chicago did as well. Most of Upstate is not Great Lakes; Utica, Syracuse, Albany, Schenectady, Binghamton, etc. Buffalo and Rochester are the two Great Lakes cities.
I would still consider Chicago to be Rust Belt. I think a good rule of thumb is whether the central city has figured out a way to combat post-industrial population decline, and I don't think Chicago has done this yet. Nor has Baltimore. NYC and Boston have, which is why those cities are no longer considered Rust Belt. But I think if we were to rewind to the 1980s, a lot of people wouldn't feel uncomfortable in including those two cities into the Rust Belt category. A decade ago Philadelphia was still Rust Belt, but it seems to have finally turned the tide.
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  #56  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 10:02 PM
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^ Chicago was huge and its economy pretty diverse. Even then. It wasn't really a one industry town like other Great Lakes cities. It certainly fell on hard times. As did NYC...total shithole when i was a kid but they had momentum to weather the storm. Very few RB cities were as successful as Pittsburgh which had the Eds and Meds to capitalize on. Plus I'm sure, competent leadership.

@ pj3000 - Absolutely. I was just up there a few days ago visiting family and it's still very rusty.
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  #57  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 10:12 PM
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Like near every time you guys really like to fly off the handle, let’s go back to my original statement:

Quote:
I find that definition far to expansive to be useful. Basically any city with pre-war industry? In my opinion rust belt is very specifically Midwest (great lakes specifically) Industrial cities and towns. Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Erie. Mostly everything along the Ohio river etc. Hell even Scranton could probably count.

Thats not to say there wasn't industry cities and towns in the Northeast and they arent also rusty due to moving industries and changing economic conditions. I think of the rust belt as much geographically (probably even more so) than I do as a social or Economic classification.
So yes much of upstate New York I think works as rust belt, Springfield? Anything in Massachusetts or Connecticut? Probably not. Allentown and Scranton and Harrisburg maybe but those are kind of both I think they are close enough to coast that they can be pulled out of my idea of what the rust belt is

I suppose a good idea is where the “center of gravity” for those places are, do they pull more towards the Great Lakes and Ohio river like Pittsburg or buffalo, or do they pull lot towards the Atlantic coast
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  #58  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
^ Chicago was huge and its economy pretty diverse. Even then. It wasn't really a one industry town like other Great Lakes cities. It certainly fell on hard times. As did NYC...total shithole when i was a kid but they had momentum to weather the storm. Very few RB cities were as successful as Pittsburgh which had the Eds and Meds to capitalize on. Plus I'm sure, competent leadership.

@ pj3000 - Absolutely. I was just up there a few days ago visiting family and it's still very rusty.
I think everyone agrees Chicago is rust belt
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  #59  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Like near every time you guys really like to fly off the handle, let’s go back to my original statement:



So yes much of upstate New York I think works as rust belt, Springfield? Anything in Massachusetts or Connecticut? Probably not. Allentown and Scranton and Harrisburg maybe but those are kind of both I think they are close enough to coast that they can be pulled out of my idea of what the rust belt is

I suppose a good idea is where the “center of gravity” for those places are, do they pull more towards the Great Lakes and Ohio river like Pittsburg or buffalo, or do they pull lot towards the Atlantic coast
Hey man, I for one, gave you total credit for what you were saying, so don’t lump me in. It’s an opinion thing. But... as someone who has spent significant portions of his life in Erie, Philly, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo, I know Rust belt. Just like Utica native JManc knows rust belt. Shit, Utica is fucking hard, man. That might sound funny to some, but go spend some time there and check it out for yourself.
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  #60  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Ok, but that eliminates a lot of what is actually the Northeast.

And there are definitely many cities within your described Northeast region that are undeniably “rust belt”.

Scranton, Reading, Schenectady, Allentown, Bethlehem, Harrisburg, Utica, Springfield, among others.
Well there is the “northeast” broken up by state borders which would require all of Pennsylvania and New York to be northeast which certainly is a workable definition

However other than just an easy dividing of states like a company might use to organize its operations or sales territory there is also the regional northeast that’s a little more specific based on geography, culture and economics

I think much of upstate New York and interior Pennsylvania would not be “northeast” but the areas close to the Atlantic coast are. Likewise at this point I generally think of Maryland and DC to be the southern end of the northeast though back in the day they were considered southern and plenty of people in northern Virginia and Maryland would scoff at being called northeastern
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