HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     
Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 3:28 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,585
Trees Are Key To Fighting Urban Heat — But Cities Keep Losing Them

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/04/75534...ep-losing-them

Quote:
Trees can play a huge role in the health of people living in cities, but across the country, cities are losing millions of trees year after year. And many poor urban neighborhoods — often home to a city's most vulnerable — are starting at a disadvantage.

"If we show you a map of tree canopy in virtually any city in America, we're also showing you a map of income," says Jad Daley, president and CEO of the nonprofit American Forests. "And in many cases we're showing you a map of race and ethnicity."

That lack of tree cover can make a neighborhood hotter, and a joint investigation by NPR and the University of Maryland's Howard Center for Investigative Journalism found just that: Low-income areas in dozens of major U.S. cities are more likely to be hotter than their wealthier counterparts, and those areas are disproportionately communities of color.

"If you live in an area in cities that is seeing more extreme heat days, but you don't have tree cover to cool down your neighborhood, that can literally be a life or death issue," says Daley. "The folks who are least likely to have air conditioning to weather heat waves, the folks who are most likely to have preexisting health conditions that put them at greater risk from those heat waves, aren't getting the benefits of trees."
I find this absolutely to be the case in Chicago where lush tree cover is common in wealthy lakefront neighborhoods, and decimated in outlying areas (where it dosent pick up again until you hit well off western suburbs like Oak Park).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 4:14 PM
Northern Light Northern Light is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
https://www.npr.org/2019/09/04/75534...ep-losing-them



I find this absolutely to be the case in Chicago where lush tree cover is common in wealthy lakefront neighborhoods, and decimated in outlying areas (where it dosent pick up again until you hit well off western suburbs like Oak Park).
Were the areas in question laid out with fewer trees?

If not, is this simply a case of not replacing trees as they die?

Does Chicago have an active program for tree planting?

I agree that a good tree canopy is one element in a healthier, more attractive neighbourhood.

Toronto plants trees on people's front yards for free; while a tree for one's back yard is subsidized.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 4:29 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 21,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
lush tree cover is common in wealthy lakefront neighborhoods, and decimated in outlying areas.
i don't know about that. we're ~3 miles from the lake and our neighborhood still has very nice tree cover in places that weren't savaged by asian longhorns/emerald ash borers.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9647...7i16384!8i8192


and here's a random street in hermosa, over 5 miles inland from the lake.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9193...7i16384!8i8192



generally speaking, chicago's residential side streets do pretty well with tree cover, but the various invasive tree-killing beetles over the past couple decades have been a true menace here, as they have in many other US cities.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
Does Chicago have an active program for tree planting?
yes, the city of chicago's bureau of forestry plants parkway trees for free for any property owner that requests them.
__________________
He has to go.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Sep 4, 2019 at 9:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 4:42 PM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 25,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
I find this absolutely to be the case in Chicago where lush tree cover is common in wealthy lakefront neighborhoods, and decimated in outlying areas (where it dosent pick up again until you hit well off western suburbs like Oak Park).
That's common everywhere. Trees might be ubiquitous but they also require maintenance and that can get pretty expensive. Plus, trees die and homeowners, absentee landlords simply don't replace them nor do they care to. It's not a priority.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 4:57 PM
MonkeyRonin's Avatar
MonkeyRonin MonkeyRonin is offline
¥ ¥ ¥
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 6,946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
"If we show you a map of tree canopy in virtually any city in America, we're also showing you a map of income," says Jad Daley, president and CEO of the nonprofit American Forests. "And in many cases we're showing you a map of race and ethnicity."

I just knew that trees were racist!



Seriously though, is that cities aren't planting trees in poorer areas, or is it just that larger lot, more heavily forested areas tend to be more desirable?

In Toronto's case, there looks to be a bit of overlap between high tree coverage and high incomes:


https://www.corporateknights.com/cha...0850-14405688/


https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/...8/m003-eng.htm



But there's also an inverse relationship with higher densities:


https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_304186957



As well as with industrial land uses: (purple on the map)


https://www.treehugger.com/urban-des...en-zoning.html



And then there's also a relationship between the Italian population and lack of tree coverage (that whole big tree-less western corridor were the traditional Italian immigrant neighbourhoods - gotta chop down those trees for the backyard gardens!).
__________________
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 5:45 PM
James Bond Agent 007's Avatar
James Bond Agent 007 James Bond Agent 007 is offline
Posh
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
Posts: 18,373
It has been noticed worldwide that rich neighborhoods have lots of trees and poor ones have few:
https://www.geographyrealm.com/gray-...visible-space/
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/...uality/390132/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 5:46 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
Were the areas in question laid out with fewer trees?

If not, is this simply a case of not replacing trees as they die?
its a complex question. many west and south side neighborhoods of Chicago were wealthy when they were developed in the late 19th century. id imagine (and looking at old photographs would probably bear this out) that they had lush tree cover (both new plantings as well as legacy old growth trees). the issue is these neighborhoods fell into disinvestment and poverty in the mid-late 20th century and much of this treecover was lost, due to disease/age/weather. it clearly has not been replenished at rates that would make a significant impact.

other areas like Pilsen or Chinatown never had significant tree cover (or traditional parkways/lawns) and as a result those more industrial communities are still very barren from a green standpoint. and the heat island impact is especially noticeable in the summer compared to other areas. the city has only very recently started new plantings in that area.

Quote:
Does Chicago have an active program for tree planting?
it does but it can take up to 3 years to get a tree. i actually went out and bought trees for my parkway and planted them myself (even though this is technically illegal, its kind of the least of the cities problems). the other issue is the city will not plant parkway trees unless a resident specifically requests one. they contest that the expense is high to plant a new tree and they dont want to put one where the residents dont want/wont care for it. so therefore the old tree canopy is lost and you wind up with many blocks that were once lush and are now entirely full sun without any shade whatsoever.

chicago had an ambitious goal of planting 1 million new trees 10 years ago but has not planted anywhere near that amount and as a result of disease/age/invasive species, the city has fewer trees today than it did a decade ago and continues to lose them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JManc View Post
That's common everywhere. Trees might be ubiquitous but they also require maintenance and that can get pretty expensive. Plus, trees die and homeowners, absentee landlords simply don't replace them nor do they care to. It's not a priority.
sure but at least in this case, we're talking about parkways and parks, which are areas of the city that the government essentially has full control over. absentee landlords shouldnt impact whether a block has trees planted on it or not.

ive also seen a stigma around trees. i know for a fact my senile old grandmother poisoned a gorgeous 100+ year old tree in her neighbors yard because she thought it was responsible for flooding her basement or something. then my GF mentioned that some neighbors did the exact same thing to old growth trees that used to be in front of her house 20+ years ago. i can only imagine what these would have looked like today, as only 2 houses down is a still in-tact absolutely enormous and stately American Elm, while we're left with a sun parched lawn. the two trees i went ahead and planted myself on this parkway is my contribution to fixing that wrong, but it would have never happened if i myself didnt shell out 1400 bucks for some well raised nursery trees and labor to put them in (yes i could have waited 3 years for the city to maybe or maybe not put something down but didnt want to wait that long).

Last edited by Via Chicago; Sep 4, 2019 at 6:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 6:02 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,585
and this is just talking about residential side streets. dont even get me started on how badly the city fails at adding tree canopies to its arterial and commerical corridors.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 6:04 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,585
case in point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post

and here's a random street in hermosa, over 5 miles inland from the lake.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9193...7i16384!8i8192
and heres what fullerton looks like just to the north

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9244...7i16384!8i8192

id say thats a fairly typical Chicago arterial streetscape
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 6:15 PM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 25,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
ive also seen a stigma around trees. i know for a fact my senile old grandmother poisoned a gorgeous 100+ year old tree in her neighbors yard because she thought it was responsible for flooding her basement or something. then my GF mentioned that some neighbors did the exact same thing to old growth trees that used to be in front of her house 20+ years ago. i can only imagine what these would have looked like today, as only 2 houses down is a still in-tact absolutely enormous and stately American Elm, while we're left with a sun parched lawn. the two trees i went ahead and planted myself on this parkway is my contribution to fixing that wrong, but it would have never happened if i myself didnt shell out 1400 bucks for some well raised nursery trees and labor to put them in (yes i could have waited 3 years for the city to maybe or maybe not put something down but didnt want to wait that long).
I'm from NY and the I suspect the foliage is fairly similar to Chicago and if I remember, elm tree roots were pretty shallow and reeked havoc on sidewalks, basements and foundations so your gran's wrath might have had some merit. My gran bitched about her neighbors' tree heaving up the sidewalk. Plus, Dutch Elm Disease wiped out a lot of elm trees and many trees planted to replacement had much shorter lifespans.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 6:29 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I'm from NY and the I suspect the foliage is fairly similar to Chicago and if I remember, elm tree roots were pretty shallow and reeked havoc on sidewalks, basements and foundations so your gran's wrath might have had some merit. My gran bitched about her neighbors' tree heaving up the sidewalk. Plus, Dutch Elm Disease wiped out a lot of elm trees and many trees planted to replacement had much shorter lifespans.
i dont know if they were or werent elms, the block my GF lives on actually has a pretty diverse array of species. the stigma seems to be directed at mature old trees in general. i let the landlord who owns the building next door know i was putting some in and his response was "well ill be dead by the time they get big and cause problems so do whatever", which basically is focusing on perceived negatives than the well documented advantages mature trees provide (to say nothing of the fact that im probably boosting his property value some small percentage by adding a little bit of curb appeal next door).

also its pretty rich her neighbors would think the tree next door was causing the problem when their house is literally surrounded by nothing but cement. i wish i was making this up but yes they completely paved their back yard and are the only house on the block that has a concrete parkway out front. no grass or drainage of any sort. but sure lets blame this on the trees next door.

i even went through this battle with my parents. their block was a magical place growing up, all 100 year old trees and gorgeous canopies. i felt like i lived in a forest. over time they were lost one by one and now their block has a completely different feel to it. its no longer that magical place. on their property alone there were 4 old growth trees that provided really nice dappled shade and cooling. we never really had to run the A/C. all those came down. i tried to convince them even when i was a teenager to replace them but they were always apprehensive. i think i finally got through to them as theyve since planted a couple (even though theyre species that will never get as towering as the old oaks and ashes that we had)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 6:38 PM
Northern Light Northern Light is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 602
Interesting link here shows Chicago tree canopy by neighbourhood.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/article...anopy-map-2017
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 6:38 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 21,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
and heres what fullerton looks like just to the north

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9244...7i16384!8i8192

id say thats a fairly typical Chicago arterial streetscape
yeah, the city is generally pretty terrible with street trees on commercial arterials in the neighborhoods.

some of the cutesy more upscale retail streets get them, like lincoln in my neighbrohood:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9672...7i16384!8i8192


but then one block over on auto-sewer western, pretty damn sparse:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9683...7i13312!8i6656





Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
Interesting link here shows Chicago tree canopy by neighbourhood.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/article...anopy-map-2017
that's by suburban municipality, not city neighborhood. the city shows up as a single orange blob.
__________________
He has to go.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 6:41 PM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 25,267
^ If those are the ornamental type trees (eg. lincoln), they typically only last 20 or so years and then have to be replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
i dont know if they were or werent elms, the block my GF lives on actually has a pretty diverse array of species. the stigma seems to be directed at mature old trees in general. i let the landlord who owns the building next door know i was putting some in and his response was "well ill be dead by the time they get big and cause problems so do whatever", which basically is focusing on perceived negatives than the well documented advantages mature trees provide (to say nothing of the fact that im probably boosting his property value some small percentage by adding a little bit of curb appeal next door).

also its pretty rich her neighbors would think the tree next door was causing the problem when their house is literally surrounded by nothing but cement. i wish i was making this up but yes they completely paved their back yard and are the only house on the block that has a concrete parkway out front. no grass or drainage of any sort. but sure lets blame this on the trees next door.

i even went through this battle with my parents. their block was a magical place growing up, all 100 year old trees and gorgeous canopies. i felt like i lived in a forest. over time they were lost one by one and now their block has a completely different feel to it. its no longer that magical place. on their property alone there were 4 old growth trees that provided really nice dappled shade and cooling. we never really had to run the A/C. all those came down. i tried to convince them even when i was a teenager to replace them but they were always apprehensive. i think i finally got through to them as theyve since planted a couple (even though theyre species that will never get as towering as the old oaks and ashes that we had)


Yeah, from what you describe, the flooding sounds like lack of drainage due to all the concrete. My aunt had that same problem. Her and her neighbor shared a driveway that abutted against both of their foundations and they both had basement issues on their respective sides of their houses.

Absolutely agreed about trees adding to curb appeal; I would never live in an area without significant tree cover which is one of the few thing I like about the stepford neighborhood I'm in. It's a suburb built in a forest but they built the houses around the trees and I have about a dozen or so on my property and one of them is about 200 years old. We had one cut down that was almost 250. I plan on planting a few more. I will be in my 90's or gone when they are big but who cares....
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 6:46 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 21,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by JManc View Post
^ If those are the ornamental type trees (eg. lincoln), they typically only last 20 or so years and then have to be replaced.
which is fine. at least they are there, and plentifully so.

on many (most?) commercial corridors in chicago, there's just nothing at all.
__________________
He has to go.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 6:47 PM
Northern Light Northern Light is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
its a complex question. many west and south side neighborhoods of Chicago were wealthy when they were developed in the late 19th century. id imagine (and looking at old photographs would probably bear this out) that they had lush tree cover (both new plantings as well as legacy old growth trees). the issue is these neighborhoods fell into disinvestment and poverty in the mid-late 20th century and much of this treecover was lost, due to disease/age/weather. it clearly has not been replenished at rates that would make a significant impact.

other areas like Pilsen or Chinatown never had significant tree cover (or traditional parkways/lawns) and as a result those more industrial communities are still very barren from a green standpoint. and the heat island impact is especially noticeable in the summer compared to other areas. the city has only very recently started new plantings in that area.
Thanks for the info!

First a point of clarification for myself, you and Dan have both been using the word 'parkway'. I assume you are meaning the space between the sidewalk and the curb??

In Toronto we call that the boulevard.

****

Toronto plants boulevards automatically, assuming they are green and not paved.

Toronto's front-lawn program is generally elective; but has been shifting to negative-option.

So the City looks at aerial photos for areas that are under-treed, then sends out staff to single out properties suitable for a tree.

They then sent a letter to the homeowner saying 'if you don't object by such and such a date, we will plant this type of tree on your front lawn'.

The backyard program is 100% elective, the land owners has to pursue it.

Commercial private property must plant trees during redevelopment; and in the past existing commercial property has been ignored.

Toronto is looking at negative option commercial property planting as well.


Quote:
it does but it can take up to 3 years to get a tree. i actually went out and bought trees for my parkway and planted them myself (even though this is technically illegal, its kind of the least of the cities problems).
Wow, Toronto is generally six months, trees are selected for planting in fall, then planted in spring; or selected in spring for fall.

If you want a species that is a spring-only transplant (nut-bearing species tend to do much better w/spring transplants), then that might be up to 12 months.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 6:52 PM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 25,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
which is fine. at least they are there, and plentifully so.

on many (most?) commercial corridors in chicago, there's just nothing at all.
In the long run, I think you want smaller more manageable trees, not something that will grow to be 200' feet and rip up/ impede the sidewalk.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 6:52 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,585
right i think building around old trees was the common way to approach development at that time. the difference is today when any developer acquires a new parcel, their first instinct is to clearcut any trees on the property.

but really the city of Chicago is not helping matters and in a lot of cases contribute to this deforestation. heres a prime example:

https://www.npr.org/local/309/2019/0...-chicago-trees
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 6:57 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
Wow, Toronto is generally six months, trees are selected for planting in fall, then planted in spring; or selected in spring for fall.

If you want a species that is a spring-only transplant (nut-bearing species tend to do much better w/spring transplants), then that might be up to 12 months.
in theory thats how it should work here but budget constraints mean it typically takes longer than that. due to these budget constraints, this is why they tend to prioritize people who "opt in" and say they want one. but ultimately this means less engaged/informed communities get left behind, and this contributes to the cycle of declining greenery in poor neighborhoods. your average person in poverty isnt thinking about trees or city greenery programs that more well off folks are taking advantage of, and its part of why i think the city should be more proactive at changing this strategy
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2019, 10:06 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Colebrook, NH (as well as QC & FL)
Posts: 25,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
but it would have never happened if i myself didnt shell out 1400 bucks for some well raised nursery trees and labor to put them in
Whaaaaaaat?!?!? This is PURE highway robbery! Almost unbelievable.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts

Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:00 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.