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  #21  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 12:51 AM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Whaaaaaaat?!?!? This is PURE highway robbery! Almost unbelievable.
You get what you pay for. These arent dinky Home Depot specials that were cared for by some stoner on his summer break. They came from a top notch nursery in Wisconsin and took a guy a full day to drive them down on a truck, dig the hole and install them. They were already 15 feet tall when they went in the ground and are good specimens, fully pruned. Sure you can plant a tiny sapling for basically nothing, the odds it will actually grow to maturity are also slim. If you want to come up to Chicago and undercut the local competition though you're more than welcome but you might want to look at what root balls of that size for oaks cost first. (PS it's the same amount of money it costs the city to put a tree in)

Last edited by Via Chicago; Sep 5, 2019 at 1:45 AM.
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  #22  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 1:47 AM
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Sure you can plant a tiny sapling for basically nothing, the odds it will actually grow to maturity are also slim.
Is there a Chicago-specific reason why that's the case...?

I usually do the landscaping myself on my properties, I've transplanted free saplings (from other properties) plenty of times, never lost a single one, be it maples, oaks, or ashes (before EAB). If it's at the property where you live then the chances go from ~95% to basically 100% as you're there every day to watch it.

Doesn't take that long for a tree that's in full sun to go from a tiny sapling to a nice size. Sure, you have to be a bit more patient, but then it's free. Decades from now, when the tree is mature, whether it started with a free sapling or a $1,000 15-ft-tall tree will be irrelevant. Some of the ones I planted are 15+ ft tall already, and it seems to me it was yesterday I planted them.

Anyway, congrats for your civic mind, it's really nice that there are people out there willing to do what you did.
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  #23  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 2:05 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Whaaaaaaat?!?!? This is PURE highway robbery! Almost unbelievable.
That's what I'm saying when I can go walk in the woods and go find one or a hundred for free. That's how I am getting the 2-3 I will be planting for my front and back yard, there is a green trail at the end of my street with saplings that I will dig up and re-plant. They must be pretty big trees for 1400 fucking dollars. I know full size or nearly full sized are in the tens of thousands.
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  #24  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 2:09 AM
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Well, in part I get to at least partially enjoy it today rather than waiting years. The whole point is we want shade. An oak is a slow growing tree, so I'm paying for a head start. As a result of how long they take to get started, you're paying more. A small sapling exposed to a negative -30 degree Chicago winter (like we had this past year) could quite possibly kill it. Also Chicago parkways take high amounts of abuse...salt spray/poor pH, dumb gang bangers, people who don't know how to park that accidentally back over it, etc.

I don't expect most ppl to do what I did as it was in fact expensive (and frowned upon by the city as they like to control what goes in/where) but at the end of the day my neighborhood has way bigger problems than someone taking beautification into their own hands. Again, factor in labor and it's pretty standard for a 3-4 caliper tree. I assure you it couldn't just be dug up and carried away

Last edited by Via Chicago; Sep 5, 2019 at 2:20 AM.
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  #25  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 2:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
Again, factor in labor and it's pretty standard ...
Actually, now that you told me they were f'ing 15 feet tall trees with the root ball that you can expect at that size, I'm thinking that $700 each including full delivery and labor/installation is on the cheap side.
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  #26  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 2:36 AM
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The whole point is we want shade. An oak is a slow growing tree, so I'm paying for a head start.
A red oak in full sun is a decently fast-growing tree. I am assuming yours are white though?
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  #27  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 2:41 AM
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That's what I'm saying when I can go walk in the woods and go find one or a hundred for free. That's how I am getting the 2-3 I will be planting for my front and back yard, there is a green trail at the end of my street with saplings that I will dig up and re-plant. They must be pretty big trees for 1400 fucking dollars. I know full size or nearly full sized are in the tens of thousands.
One nice aspect of this (getting them for free out there) is that you can often know the genetics of your saplings just as well as if they came from a nursery... if that tree is the only one of its species in the immediate vicinity and they're growing in the grass you're about to mow.

I have a massive oak on the front lawn of an early 1870s property so it's nearing 150 years old and still in great health, it gave me a few saplings already for planting at other properties. The neighbors of that one property all have maples, so I know the tiny oaks growing under it can't be anything but its progeny.
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  #28  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 2:59 AM
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Ok.......on the subject of cost for trees, lets just say I'm an expert (cause I am)....at least in pricing in Southern Ontario.

Cost will vary by species, by size, and by whether your paying for installation, and what method (hand dug vs tree spade truck).

A standard 'caliper' tree (6-8ft high) installed, hand-dug, will set you back about $500CAD or $375USD

If you want 15Ft tall, you're looking at close to $700CAD/$525USD for the tree itself, (range $550-850 depending on species).

That large a tree would normally be planted by tree spade truck in the industry.

That will add roughly 2/3 to your cost, or about another $450CAD or $350USD.

So your in the ballpark of $875USD give or take.

That's before any sales taxes. So the price paid is not terrible, by any means.

Though it certainly is a material investment.

Tree Spade or not, I tend to be concerned about how badly cut back the rootball is, that's often indicative of success for failure for a tree.

I'm not an expert on the right choice of species for Chicago; though I would imagine the overall list is similar to Toronto.

I'd be very inclined to choose 'swamp species' over more other choices for urban environments.

There are lots of other good choices, but if you're not 100% sure what you're doing, they are usually the safest bets.

Swamp White Oak, Silver Maple, Acer Freeman (silver/red maple cross).

Elms, but for the concerns over Dutch elm are a great choice; a quasi-resistant varietal can be a good fit for many urban locations.

Sites that can be protected from excess salt, and have at least 30 cubic metres of soil volume can support a much wider range of choices.
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  #29  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 3:15 AM
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There are lots of other good choices, but if you're not 100% sure what you're doing, they are usually the safest bets.

Swamp White Oak, Silver Maple, Acer Freeman (silver/red maple cross).
Silver Maple loses limbs pretty easily, it's a fragile tree and I definitely wouldn't recommend it. I still have a massive one at one property (where no A/C is needed - it towers over the building like a giant umbrella) and I'm considering getting rid of it due to the risk.

Grows very fast, though.

If they are planted on the ROW that belongs to the City (who will be liable if they do any damage) then okay, no downside then.

Also, they attract squirrels, they love them. Mine is always full. They're cute to watch.

I wanted to get myself some elms of DED-resistant cultivars, but they're all sold in the USA and the only places where it would be logical for me to plant elms are in Quebec. (I am almost certain I located a massive elm in the forest on my NH lands though... not sure as I'm no expert on elms, they're all long gone here. I don't recall ever seeing an American Elm in person ever since I started being interested in trees.)
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  #30  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 3:41 AM
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Silver Maple loses limbs pretty easily, it's a fragile tree and I definitely wouldn't recommend it. I still have a massive one at one property (where no A/C is needed - it towers over the building like a giant umbrella) and I'm considering getting rid of it due to the risk.

Grows very fast, though.

If they are planted on the ROW that belongs to the City (who will be liable if they do any damage) then okay, no downside then.

Also, they attract squirrels, they love them. Mine is always full. They're cute to watch.

I wanted to get myself some elms of DED-resistant cultivars, but they're all sold in the USA and the only places where it would be logical for me to plant elms are in Quebec. (I am almost certain I located a massive elm in the forest on my NH lands though... not sure as I'm no expert on elms, they're all long gone here. I don't recall ever seeing an American Elm in person ever since I started being interested in trees.)
Silver's can have that tendency, though its really about pruning, keep them from developing overly large, heavy spread limbs, and they really aren't that bad.

Elm's are pretty easy to ID, relatively distinct leaf, and most have a very clear form when growing in the open.........you can see a Vee-shape at the top...

From the Lost Rivers website.......see this image below:



PS, any tree you have that seems to be naturally dutch-elm resistant will have seed that is of interest to nurseries and researchers.

PPS, also note the form of the Silver Maple......bet you never find one like that at the typical nursery. Many nurseries are guilty of encouraging multi-stem growth because it looks pretty, when young, they never seem to mention the implications in 20 years time.....
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  #31  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 4:22 AM
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The leaves of my "maybe elm" look like the leaves of yellow birch and ironwood, but the tree is neither, and has bark almost like a cedar.

It's not growing in the open, and the only reason I could even see leaves is that it sprouted a few at trunk level.

So far, does all of this sound like a plausible elm to you...?
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  #32  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 4:34 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
The leaves of my "maybe elm" look like the leaves of yellow birch and ironwood, but the tree is neither, and has bark almost like a cedar.

It's not growing in the open, and the only reason I could even see leaves is that it sprouted a few at trunk level.

So far, does all of this sound like a plausible elm to you...?
American Elm


https://www.ontario.ca/page/american-elm

Carpinus (Hornbeam) foliage looks somewhat like elm and is widespread in eastern USA and southeast Canada

https://www.carolinanature.com/trees/caca.html
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  #33  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 4:57 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
The leaves of my "maybe elm" look like the leaves of yellow birch and ironwood, but the tree is neither, and has bark almost like a cedar.

It's not growing in the open, and the only reason I could even see leaves is that it sprouted a few at trunk level.

So far, does all of this sound like a plausible elm to you...?
uhhh.........

Bark on all 4 is quite distinct.

Leaves are closer..........but have some very discernible differences.

(not being snarky, just saying)

https://www.minnesotawildflowers.inf...erican-elm.jpg

This is American Elm........notice the distinct slant at the base of the leaf on one side.

That does not exist on Birch or Ironwood.

Slippery/Red Elm the slant is a bit less conspicuous but still there.

The Bark on yellow birch doesn't peel like paper birch but it is peel-ish, coming off horizontal stripes.

Cedar is also a very peel-ish tree, albeit off vertical lines, and much more fibrous as opposed to papery.

Elm bark and Ironwood bark don't look the same, but honestly hard to explain the difference easily, neither peel at all, if healthy. I went and looked at pictures to remind myself........and I would simply say, look at leaf and form (where possible).

Also Ironwood doesn't get nearly as tall as elm.

Ironwood caps out at about 40ft.

American Elm can hit 100ft.
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  #34  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 1:55 PM
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In my experience, nobody beats Singapore for excellent tree cover, though Shanghai and many cities in the Yangtze River Delta do a pretty good job too, especially in older areas of the city.
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  #35  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 2:06 PM
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In my experience, nobody beats Singapore for excellent tree cover, though Shanghai and many cities in the Yangtze River Delta do a pretty good job too, especially in older areas of the city.
According to this:

https://www.businessinsider.com/citi...ngapore-293-18

Singapore is #2 in the world, after Tampa Bay (who knew?)

1. Tampa
2. Singapore
3. Oslo
4. Vancouver
5. Sydney
6. Montreal
7. Durban
8. Johannesburg
9. Sacramento
10. Frankfurt
11. Geneva
12. Amsterdam
13. Seattle
14. Toronto
15. Miami
16. Boston
17. Tel Aviv
18. Turin
19. L.A.
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  #36  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 2:17 PM
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[QUOTE=Northern Light;8678226]
PS, any tree you have that seems to be naturally dutch-elm resistant will have seed that is of interest to nurseries and researchers.
/QUOTE]

i dont know if the one on our block is resistant, but it has survived against the odds. when the guy came to install our trees he actually flipped out as soon as he saw the Elm and was like "wait lets talk about this one". he strongly encouraged us to do the inoculations but those run several hundred dollars and have to be repeated every 3 years for the life of the tree. but A) thats also a lot of money and B) its again technically a city owned tree and most professional contractors will balk at doing any work on one if not hired directly by the city. so at this point we're basically hoping whatever helped it survive to this point will keep going.

you can see it towering over our new sappling. the day it comes down is gonna be real tragic. to think our cities used to be coated in these things.

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  #37  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 3:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
According to this:

https://www.businessinsider.com/citi...ngapore-293-18

Singapore is #2 in the world, after Tampa Bay (who knew?)

1. Tampa
2. Singapore
3. Oslo
4. Vancouver
5. Sydney
6. Montreal
7. Durban
8. Johannesburg
9. Sacramento
10. Frankfurt
11. Geneva
12. Amsterdam
13. Seattle
14. Toronto
15. Miami
16. Boston
17. Tel Aviv
18. Turin
19. L.A.
Houston isn't on that list which is interesting. It's one of the greenest/ lushest cities I've seen.
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  #38  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 3:48 PM
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[

i dont know if the one on our block is resistant, but it has survived against the odds. when the guy came to install our trees he actually flipped out as soon as he saw the Elm and was like "wait lets talk about this one". he strongly encouraged us to do the inoculations but those run several hundred dollars and have to be repeated every 3 years for the life of the tree. but A) thats also a lot of money and B) its again technically a city owned tree and most professional contractors will balk at doing any work on one if not hired directly by the city. so at this point we're basically hoping whatever helped it survive to this point will keep going.

you can see it towering over our new sappling. the day it comes down is gonna be real tragic. to think our cities used to be coated in these things.

Gorgeous specimen!

Have you seen any indication of the disease, and/or had the tree tested?

If not, I'm doubtful on the utility of the treatment, as a tree that old has likely been exposed to the disease before.

If you so see evidence of disease, request trimming of infected limbs urgently as this can arrest its development in many cases.

If you do have a resistant specimen...........there may be somewhere in the U.S. that would collect the seed and grow resistant trees from it.

There is such a project in Ontario as the University of Guelph, but I believe they only collect seed from Ontario.

https://www.uoguelph.ca/arboretum/re...ip/elmrecovery
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  #39  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 4:24 PM
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UIUC's ag department might be a good place to check!
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  #40  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2019, 4:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
uhhh.........

Bark on all 4 is quite distinct.

Leaves are closer..........but have some very discernible differences.

(not being snarky, just saying)
You didn't need to lecture me on Yellow Birch, I'm pretty much already an expert on any Northeastern high-value timber tree at this point (after many years of doing forest management myself). Yellow Birch is very common and very recognizable. And also, BTW, it's a great ornamental tree in the city... I see them once in a while, but they're not as popular as they could be, for some reason.

Elm doesn't exist anymore for the industry, and also not really as an urban ornamental tree in my area, so, it's a huge blind spot for me.

Next time I'm in that area of my land I'll have a much closer look at it. If it's an elm it may simply have escaped the disease by being pretty isolated among other species.
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