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  #21  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JAYNYC View Post
Yup. San Diego is the only 3M+ geography that is not a CSA and if it ever adds El Centro that could change but idk

EDIT: Tampa too is not a CSA yet
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  #22  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 1:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dimondpark View Post
Yup. San Diego is the only 3M+ geography that is not a CSA and if it ever adds El Centro that could change but idk

EDIT: Tampa too is not a CSA yet
Do you know when Phoenix received a CSA designation? The difference between MSA and CSA is less than 54,000.

2018: CSA: 4,911,851 [includes Gila County, pop 53,000]
2018: MSA: 4,857,962

Phoenix is more connected to Yavapai County [pop 235,000] - Prescott, than Gila.
Prescott - Phoenix - Tucson - Nogales is part of the Arizona Sun Corridor Megapolitan region.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_Sun_Corridor

Some milestones for Metro Phoenix will likely be hit in 2020:
1] Phoenix: 1.7 million
2] Mesa: 500,000
3] There will be 4 more suburbs that exceed 250,000
4] Keep an eye on Buckeye, for explosive growth this decade. Currently around over 80,000 [up from 6,500 in the year 2000] with a planning area of 650 square miles, much larger than the city of Phoenix.
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  #23  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 1:54 PM
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Houston is already slowing down to some extent and the rest of Texas could as well as the rest of the country improves economically opening up more options for people to work/ live rather than just the sunbelt cities. I just think it will at least top Boston in the next 10-11 years. I lived there (briefly) and much of the region is pretty stagnant where as virtually everything within 75 miles of downtown (Houston) is growing. Boston and the area around it is just loaded with tons of decent sized MSA's in their own right; Providence; Worcester, Nashua, Manchester, etc...
Houston has slowed because it is still dependent on energy prices (at least it did not go into a depression like the 80s). Will Austin and San Antonio be combined into a CSA? It's odd that Boston-Providence and DC-Baltimore are CSA, but Chicago-Rockford-Milwaukee are not.
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  #24  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 1:59 PM
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Houston is already slowing down to some extent and the rest of Texas could as well as the rest of the country improves economically opening up more options for people to work/ live rather than just the sunbelt cities. I just think it will at least top Boston in the next 10-11 years. I lived there (briefly) and much of the region is pretty stagnant where as virtually everything within 75 miles of downtown (Houston) is growing. Boston and the area around it is just loaded with tons of decent sized MSA's in their own right; Providence; Worcester, Nashua, Manchester, etc...
Assuming US population projections come somewhat true, those people have to live somewhere. Texas has the land and the business climate to absorb a large share of those people. Old New England, does not.
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  #25  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 2:07 PM
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It's odd that Boston-Providence and DC-Baltimore are CSA, but Chicago-Rockford-Milwaukee are not.
Not really.

Downtown to downtown, Boston/Providence & DC/Baltimore are in the 30 - 40 mile range (as the crow flies).

Downtown Chicago to downtown Milwaukee is 81 miles. Distance matters.
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  #26  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 3:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Do you know when Phoenix received a CSA designation?
Per an earlier post:

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CSA definitions were redefined last October. Orlando gained Lakeland, Phoenix got a CSA, and Austin lost its CSA in 2013 when Marble Falls was removed.
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  #27  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 3:42 PM
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Not really.

Downtown to downtown, Boston/Providence & DC/Baltimore are in the 30 - 40 mile range (as the crow flies).

Downtown Chicago to downtown Milwaukee is 81 miles. Distance matters.
Is there a definitive separation between Chicago and Milwaukee? Like, where to Chicago’s northern suburbs end and Milwaukee’s southern suburbs begin? And, do the CSA dividing lines make sense?

A distance example in the case of NYC and Philadelphia...

Allentown to Philadelphia: 60 miles
Allentown to New York: 90 miles
Allentown: part of NYC CSA

Trenton to Philadelphia: 35 miles
Trenton to New York: 65 miles
Trenton: part of NYC CSA

Not only are these two metro areas much closer distance-wise, they are also much more closely affiliated with Philly, in terms of culture, media, commuting, sports team allegiances, retail, accent, architecture, etc.

NYC and Philadelphia are a single, huge CSA in reality, if what the OMB determines NYC’s “territory” to be is somehow accurate.
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  #28  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by N90 View Post
CSA definitions were redefined last October. Orlando gained Lakeland, Phoenix got a CSA, and Austin lost its CSA in 2013 when Marble Falls was removed.
Well... That's annoying.

Here's my projection for 2030: The whole list will be randomly shuffled around because a bunch of definitions got changed, lol.
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  #29  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 5:33 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
Will Austin and San Antonio be combined into a CSA?
Based on daily commute data alone, it certainly should; that said, downtown to downtown is ~79 miles, and although the unofficial I-35 southernmost and northernmost outskirts cities of Kyle (Austin) and Schertz (San Antonio) are separated by only 43 miles, the case could be made that the distance between the two metros is still a bit too far.
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  #30  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Is there a definitive separation between Chicago and Milwaukee? Like, where to Chicago’s northern suburbs end and Milwaukee’s southern suburbs begin? And, do the CSA dividing lines make sense?

A distance example in the case of NYC and Philadelphia...

Allentown to Philadelphia: 60 miles
Allentown to New York: 90 miles
Allentown: part of NYC CSA

Trenton to Philadelphia: 35 miles
Trenton to New York: 65 miles
Trenton: part of NYC CSA

Not only are these two metro areas much closer distance-wise, they are also much more closely affiliated with Philly, in terms of culture, media, commuting, sports team allegiances, retail, accent, architecture, etc.

NYC and Philadelphia are a single, huge CSA in reality, if what the OMB determines NYC’s “territory” to be is somehow accurate.
Chicago's CSA includes Kenosha as its northern extent. Milwaukee's CSA includes Racine as its southern extent. Kenosha and Racine are 10 miles apart.

For all intents and purposes, Chicago and Milwaukee are unofficially apart of the same general metro area or region. The commuting numbers don't yet meet the threshold as an official CSA. Residents have fairly easy access to each others amenities. For instance, Mitchell Airport in Milwaukee is considered "Chicago's third airport", while O'Hare provides international access to residents of Milwaukee. Culturally, they are still two distinct cities and I would imagine the same is true with Philly and New York.
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  #31  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 6:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeMusashi View Post
Chicago's CSA includes Kenosha as its northern extent. Milwaukee's CSA includes Racine as its southern extent. Kenosha and Racine are 10 miles apart.

For all intents and purposes, Chicago and Milwaukee are unofficially apart of the same general metro area or region. The commuting numbers don't yet meet the threshold as an official CSA. Residents have fairly easy access to each others amenities. For instance, Mitchell Airport in Milwaukee is considered "Chicago's third airport", while O'Hare provides international access to residents of Milwaukee. Culturally, they are still two distinct cities and I would imagine the same is true with Philly and New York.
Interesting, thanks for the info.

And yes, Philly and New York are definitely culturally distinct (and I would imagine quite a bit more so than in the case of Chicago and Milwaukee). And that's what makes it all the more silly to have Trenton and Allentown considered a part of NYC area... when they are FAR more culturally akin to Philadelphia.
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  #32  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Not really.

Downtown to downtown, Boston/Providence & DC/Baltimore are in the 30 - 40 mile range (as the crow flies).

Downtown Chicago to downtown Milwaukee is 81 miles. Distance matters.
Distance matters but it’s not everything.

Just as Texas cities are much larger geographically than older northeastern cities, similarly CSA sizes can vary

If Milwaukee and Chicago area people start acting like they belong in one region, then that’s what really matters. I have no idea if we are there yet, I’m just making a general point.

For example, in my years living in DC, Baltimore felt like a completely different city. I could care less if they are 40 miles apart, I still have a hard time viewing them as a combined metro. Silicon Valley and SF, however, feel like they are far more connected.

Anyhow, CSA is kind of silly to me. It just seems like smaller cities’ way to feel like they are huge or something.
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  #33  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 7:28 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post

For example, in my years living in DC, Baltimore felt like a completely different city. I could care less if they are 40 miles apart, I still have a hard time viewing them as a combined metro. Silicon Valley and SF, however, feel like they are far more connected.

Anyhow, CSA is kind of silly to me. It just seems like smaller cities’ way to feel like they are huge or something.
I can understand living in DC and Baltimore feeling like a completely different city. Because it IS a completely different city.

But the two cities are completely connected. All the many suburbs between them completely blend together. But when living in DC, if you didn't spend much time in the PG or Howard or AA county DC/Baltimore suburbs, you wouldn't really feel like they are that connected. But they totally are.

Totally silly. And I'd say that CSA is also a way for really big cities to attempt to feel even bigger... case in point being Allentown metro area added to NYC in 2013, even though parts of that metro are like 130 miles away from NYC and through mountains and farms. Might as well just say that all of eastern PA is now part of NYC. I think NYC just wants to maintain its "lead" over the LA CSA
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  #34  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I can understand living in DC and Baltimore feeling like a completely different city. Because it IS a completely different city.

But the two cities are completely connected. All the many suburbs between them completely blend together. But when living in DC, if you didn't spend much time in the PG or Howard or AA county DC/Baltimore suburbs, you wouldn't really feel like they are that connected. But they totally are.

Totally silly. And I'd say that CSA is also a way for really big cities to attempt to feel even bigger... case in point being Allentown metro area added to NYC in 2013, even though parts of that metro are like 130 miles away from NYC and through mountains and farms. Might as well just say that all of eastern PA is now part of NYC. I think NYC just wants to maintain its "lead" over the LA CSA
I didn’t notice, because when I lived in DC I was a car-lite urbanite and rarely visited Maryland other than to pass through. And when I did, Baltimore felt like a distinct entity.

The whole “suburbs blend together” is a very slippery slope. We might was well say that the entire northeast is one massive metro, if we continue to go down that path.

And it serves little use. Suburbs are just a jumble of housing subdivisions nowadays anyhow. Cities are the places with real identity, at least cities largely built out before WWII. Whatever “flag” a suburb wears is beyond the point. There are people in Waukegan or Zion, IL who spend most of their time going up to Milwaukee, while there may be Oak Creek, WI who go to Chicago a lot.

Point being, we are better off narrowing down the definition of a city/metro rather than trying to expand it, which leads to a lot of splitting hairs.
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  #35  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 8:43 PM
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This is the "border" between the Chicago and Miwaukee CSA's: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6676.../data=!3m1!1e3
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  #36  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
I didn’t notice, because when I lived in DC I was a car-lite urbanite and rarely visited Maryland other than to pass through. And when I did, Baltimore felt like a distinct entity.

The whole “suburbs blend together” is a very slippery slope. We might was well say that the entire northeast is one massive metro, if we continue to go down that path.

And it serves little use. Suburbs are just a jumble of housing subdivisions nowadays anyhow. Cities are the places with real identity, at least cities largely built out before WWII. Whatever “flag” a suburb wears is beyond the point. There are people in Waukegan or Zion, IL who spend most of their time going up to Milwaukee, while there may be Oak Creek, WI who go to Chicago a lot.

Point being, we are better off narrowing down the definition of a city/metro rather than trying to expand it, which leads to a lot of splitting hairs.
Can we just combine Washington to Boston as one giant CSA already and move on?
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  #37  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
I didn’t notice, because when I lived in DC I was a car-lite urbanite and rarely visited Maryland other than to pass through. And when I did, Baltimore felt like a distinct entity.

The whole “suburbs blend together” is a very slippery slope. We might was well say that the entire northeast is one massive metro, if we continue to go down that path.

And it serves little use. Suburbs are just a jumble of housing subdivisions nowadays anyhow. Cities are the places with real identity, at least cities largely built out before WWII. Whatever “flag” a suburb wears is beyond the point. There are people in Waukegan or Zion, IL who spend most of their time going up to Milwaukee, while there may be Oak Creek, WI who go to Chicago a lot.

Point being, we are better off narrowing down the definition of a city/metro rather than trying to expand it, which leads to a lot of splitting hairs.
I would totally agree that Baltimore is a distinct entity from DC... they're different. I think that would be the case regardless of which city was "paired" with Washington DC. It's likely magnified because DC is what it is. Baltimore and DC obviously function differently, but they're also two very old, large cities with centuries of their own histories and culture -- they just fully grew physically together in the age of the auto.

I think you see can distinct differences within other MSAs/CSAs too. Dallas-Ft. Worth comes to mind as two distinct larger cities that grew together.

Yeah, I agree that the "suburbs blend together" descriptor can be problematic because... yeah, where do you draw the dividing line? I also think that narrowing the definition is much more informative. And maybe it could result in people who live in outer exubrbs claiming that they are "from" ________ (enter city name).

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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Can we just combine Washington to Boston as one giant CSA already and move on?
There is a bit of a break in connection between the overall Boston-anchored portion and New York and between the overall Philly-anchored portion and Batimore though. Philadelphia and New York "share" Jersey between them and are more closely connected than Philly is to Baltimore and New York is to Boston.

But based on how the OMB arbitrarily assigns CSA classification in the east coast corridor's case, yeah, why not just combine it all? That's no sillier than what they do now.
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  #38  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 9:59 PM
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Based on daily commute data alone, it certainly should; that said, downtown to downtown is ~79 miles, and although the unofficial I-35 southernmost and northernmost outskirts cities of Kyle (Austin) and Schertz (San Antonio) are separated by only 43 miles, the case could be made that the distance between the two metros is still a bit too far.
San Marcos is the southermost Austin suburb and New Braunfels is the northernmost San Antonio suburb, and they are only about five miles apart on I-35.
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  #39  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 10:27 PM
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San Marcos is the southermost Austin suburb and New Braunfels is the northernmost San Antonio suburb, and they are only about five miles apart on I-35.
Lived in both cities for years, continue to visit both regularly and beg to disagree that those represent each respective cities' southernmost and northernmost suburbs.

Further, there have always been - and continue to be - noticeable development gaps between Kyle and San Marcos, between San Marcos and New Braunfels, and between New Braunfels and Schertz (regardless of how few miles separate them).
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  #40  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 10:33 PM
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New Braunfels/ San Marcos would seem connected to San Antonio/ Austin receptively if the latter were the size of Houston or Dallas but they are so much smaller and compact metros (there's a lot of nothing in SATX's city limits) that the cities along 35 and right around there, Buda, Seguin, etc. feel like their own region. My suburb (Kingwood) is 30 miles from downtown Houston and feels very much a part of Houston because Houston is such a massive sprawl monster.
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