CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion

[denizen467]

^ Atlanta, because of geography, gets to be sort of a double-hub, because in addition to its normal hub-shed of, say, a 600 mile radius (its distance to Chicago or Miami), it also serves as a hub for about two dozen airports across Caribbean island destinations that are far away enough that they would normally have their own hub in their own vicinity. The closest of the small Caribbean islands (USVI) is 1600 miles from Atlanta, and the farthest one (Trinidad) is 2200 miles away. Normally that type of distance would cause a separate hub to exist locally rather than being served from far away, but these are scattered little islands, and there isn't a critical mass of population or commerce or development to support a local hub, so Atlanta gets this outsized "hinterland". Also, being Delta's main southern frontier hub, a similar phenomenon happens with Mexico and Central America, for about 20 destinations. As a southern long haul gateway, there are another dozen or so destinations in South America.

Compared to those southern routes, O'Hare can't have a similar number of Asian destinations just because of sheer distance and therefore traffic volume, and Canada traffic is intrinsically small. For Europe flights, Atlanta looks like it enjoys status as Delta's largest hub, or is roughly tied with NY, while O'Hare appears relegated as UA's 3rd-biggest Europe hub (with New York and Washington DC being better positioned) and as maybe AA's 3rd-biggest Europe hub (with its east coast hubs being better positioned).

So, a lot of this results just from how the hometown airline(s) of a city have chosen which other cities will serve as their other hubs. Another part results from Atlanta being very well situated for both Europe as well as Latin America and the Caribbean, which have much more traffic than Asia. Of course, the eastern seaboard has a huge population, and the South is booming in population, to begin with.

[maru2501]

that's an interesting explanation thanks

[Kngkyle]

Someone over at airliners.net compiles this every year and I always find it pretty interesting, so I thought I'd share it here. It compares 2016 vs 2017 international service in the summer peak season.

Brief overview of changes:

• Two new carriers: Interjet + EVA Air
  Four new markets: Tokyo Haneda, Taipei, Barcelona (resumption), Krakow (resumption)
  One discontinued carrier: Virgin Atlantic
  Four discontinued markets: Dusseldorf (AA), Kitchener/Waterloo (AA/MQ), London, ON (United), Edmonton (United)

Overall, seats are down *slightly* year-over-year with 140 fewer weekly seats available compared to prior years, and flights are down 1.6% year-over year.

If you are interested in joining our Facebook Group which is themed around Chicago Aviation, please visit > https://www.facebook.com/groups/6982...88833272950135

please feel free to respond with questions, comments, revisions or inquiries. Thank you!

Aer Lingus
International Terminal 5
DUBLIN (DUB) – 14 weekly – Airbus A330-300 (13x), Airbus A330-200 (1x)

AeroMexico
International Terminal 5
GUADALAJARA (GDL) – 13 weekly – Boeing 737-800
MEXICO CITY (MEX) – 21 weekly – Boeing 737-800 w/ Scimitar Winglets

airberlin
Arrivals: International Terminal 5; Departures: Terminal 3
BERLIN (TXL) – 7 weekly – Airbus A330-200

Air Canada
Terminal 2
MONTRÉAL (YUL) – 35 weekly – Embraer RJ175 – Operated by Sky Regional/AC Express
TORONTO (YYZ) – 55 weekly – Embraer RJ190
TORONTO (YYZ) – 1 weekly – Embraer RJ175 – Operated by Sky Regional/AC Express
VANCOUVER (YVR) – 7 weekly – Airbus A319

Air France
International Terminal 5
PARIS (CDG) – 7 weekly – Airbus A330-200

Air India
<i>International Terminal 5</i>
DELHI (DEL) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Alitalia
International Terminal 5
ROME (FCO) – 7 weekly – Airbus A330-200

All Nippon Airways
Arrivals: International Terminal 5; Departures: Terminal 1
TOKYO (HND) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER
TOKYO (NRT) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

American Airlines
Arrivals: International Terminal 5 (excluding Preclearance airports), Departures &amp; Preclearance arrivals: Terminal 3
BARCELONA (BCN) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8
BEIJING (PEK) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8
CANCÚN (CUN) – 14 weekly – Boeing 737-800
DUBLIN (DUB) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8
LONDON (LHR) – 28 weekly – Boeing 787-8
MANCHESTER (MAN) – 7 weekly – Boeing 767-300
MONTEGO BAY (MBJ) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800
PARIS (CDG) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-9
PUNTA CANA (PUJ) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800
ROME (FCO) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER
SAN JOSÉ DEL CABO (SJD) – 2 weekly – Boeing 737-800
SHANGHAI (PVG) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8
TOKYO (NRT) – 7 weekly– Boeing 787-8

American Airlines Operated by Envoy
[i]Terminal 3[/]
TORONTO (YYZ) – 42 weekly – Embraer RJ145

American Airlines Operated by Skywest
Terminal 3
MONTRÉAL (YUL) – 21 weekly – Canadair CRJ-200

Asiana Airlines
International Terminal 5
SEOUL (ICN) – 5 weekly – Boeing 777-200LR

Austrian Airlines
International Terminal 5
VIENNA (VIE) – 7 weekly – Boeing 767-300ER

Avianca El Salvador
International Terminal 5
SAN SALVADOR (SAL) – 5 weekly – Airbus A319

British Airways
International Terminal 5
LONDON (LHR) – 14 weekly – Boeing 747-400

Cathay Pacific
International Terminal 5
HONG KONG (HKG) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Cayman Airways
International Terminal 5
GRAND CAYMAN (GCM) – 2 weekly – Boeing 737-300

China Eastern
International Terminal 5
SHANGHAI (PVG) – 5 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Copa Airlines
International Terminal 5
PANAMA CITY (PTY) – 14 weekly – Boeing 737-800

Emirates
International Terminal 5
DUBAI(DXB) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Etihad Airways
International Terminal 5
ABU DHABI (AUH) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Finnair
International Terminal 5
HELSINKI (HEL) – 5 weekly – Airbus A330-300

EVA Air
International Terminal 5
TAIPEI (TPE) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Frontier
Arrivals: International Terminal 5; Departures: Terminal 3
CANCÚN (CUN) – 7 weekly – Airbus A321
PUNTA CANA (PUJ) – 7 weekly –Airbus A320

Hainan
International Terminal 5
BEIJING (PEK) – 4 weekly – Boeing 787-8

Iberia
Arrivals: International Terminal 5; Departures: Terminal 3
MADRID (MAD) – 7 weekly – Airbus A340-600

Icelandair
International Terminal 5
REKJAVIK (KEF) – 7 weekly –Boeing 767-300ER

Interjet
International Terminal 5
MEXICO CITY (MEX) – 14 weekly – Airbus A320

Japan Airlines
<i>Arrivals: International Terminal 5; Departures: Terminal 3</i>
TOKYO (NRT) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines
International Terminal 5
AMSTERDAM (AMS) – 7 weekly – Boeing 747-COMBI

Korean Air
International Terminal 5
SEOUL (ICN) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

LOT Polish Airlines
International Terminal 5
KRAKOW (KRK) – 1 weekly –Boeing 787-8
WARSAW (WAW) – 12 weekly –Boeing 787-8

Lufthansa
<i>Arrivals: International Terminal 5; Departures: Terminal 1</i>
FRANKFURT (FRA) – 14 weekly –Boeing 747-800
MUNICH (MUC) – 7 weekly –Airbus A340-600

Qatar Airways
International Terminal 5
DOHA (DOH) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Royal Jordanian
International Terminal 5
AMMAN (AMM) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-800

Scandinavian Airlines
International Terminal 5
COPENHAGEN (CPH) – 7 weekly –Airbus A340-300
STOCKHOLM (ARN) – 7 weekly –Airbus A330-300

SWISS International Airlines
International Terminal 5
ZURICH (ZRH) – 11 weekly – Airbus A330-300 (5x), Boeing 777-300ER (6x)

Turkish Airlines
International Terminal 5
ISTANBUL (IST) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

United Airlines
Arrivals: International Terminal 5 (excluding Preclearance airports), Departures &amp; Preclearance arrivals: Terminal 1
AMSTERDAM (AMS) – 7 weekly – Boeing 767-300ER
ARUBA (AUA) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-900ER
BEIJING (PEK) –7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER
BRUSSELS (BRU) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER
CALGARY (YYC) – 14 weekly – Airbus A319
CANCÚN (CUN) – 14 weekly – 737-900ER
DUBLIN (DUB) – 7 weekly – Boeing 757-200
EDINBURGH (EDI) – 7 weekly – Boeing 757-200
FRANKFURT AM MAIN (FRA) – 14 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER
GRAND CAYMAN (GCM)
HONG KONG (HKG) – 7 weekly– Boeing 777-200ER
LONDON (LHR) – 21 weekly – Boeing 767-300ER
LIBERIA (LIR) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800
MONTEGO BAY (MBJ) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800
MEXICO CITY (MEX) – 12 weekly – Airbus A320
MUNICH (MUC) – Daily – Boeing 777-200ER
NASSAU (NAS) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800
PARIS (CDG) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER
PUERTO VALLARTA (PVR) –2 weekly –Boeing 737-800
ROME (FCO) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER
SAN JOSÉ DEL CABO (SJD) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800
SÃO PAULO (GRU) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER
SHANGHAI (PVG) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER
SHANNON (SNN) – 7 weekly – Boeing 757-200
TOKYO (NRT) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER
TORONTO –25 weekly – Airbus A320 (3x), Airbus A319 (5x), Boeing 737-700 (2x), Boeing 737-800 (10x), Boeing 737-900ER (5x)
VANCOUVER (YVR) – 28 weekly – Airbus A320 (7x), Airbus A319 (6x), Boeing 737-800 (5x), Boeing 737-900ER (10x)

United Airlines Operated by SkyWest
Arrivals: International Terminal 5 (excluding Preclearance airports), Departures &amp; Preclearance arrivals: Terminal 1
CALGARY – 7 weekly – Canadair Regional Jet 700
MONTERREY –14 weekly – Embraer 175
OTTAWA –14 weekly – Canadair Regional Jet 200
WINNEPEG –6 weekly – Canadair Regional Jet 700

United Airlines Operated by ExpressJet
Arrivals: International Terminal 5 (excluding Preclearance airports), Departures &amp; Preclearance arrivals: Terminal 1
MONTREAL–34 weekly – Embraer 145
QUEBEC CITY –7 weekly – Embraer 145
OTTAWA –6 weekly – Embraer 145
TORONTO –6 weekly – Embraer 145
WINNEPEG –14 weekly – Embraer 145 (14x), Canadair Regional Jet 200 (7x)

United Airlines Operated by GoJet
Arrivals: International Terminal 5 (excluding Preclearance airports), Departures &amp; Preclearance arrivals: Terminal 1
TORONTO –20 weekly – Canadair Regional Jet 700

Volaris
International Terminal 5
GUADALAJARA (GDL) – 7 weekly – Airbus A321
MEXICO CITY – 14 weekly – Airbus A320
MONTERREY –3 weekly – Airbus A319

WestJet
Terminal 5
CALGARY (YYC) – 6 weekly – 737-600 (2x), 737-700 (2x), 737-800 (2x)



Major Changes from Summer 2016 (AA):
→ NEW daily service to Barcelona, 787-8
→ 787-9 replaces 763 on AA ORD-CDG
→ CUN increased from 8x to 14x weekly
→ 787-800 replaces A332 on AA ORD-DUB
→ AA ORD-DUS flight CANCELLED (7 weekly 767-300 in 2016)
→ 777-200 remains on AA ORD-FCO, converted to 2-class from 3-class in 2016
→ LHR goes entirely 787-8 [S16 had Boeing 767-300ER (14x), 777-200ER (7x), 777-300ER (7x)]. First summer ever without AA First offered between ORD and LHR
→ 767-300 replaces 787-800 on AA ORD-MAN
→ SJD increases 1 to 2 weekly
→ Service to KITCHENER/WATERLOO (YKF) CANCELLED (14 weekly – Embraer RJ145 in S16)
→ Toronto increases from 41 to 42 weekly
→ Montreal increases from 14 to 21 weekly
→ AA ORD-PVR and ORD-CZM do not operate during IATA Northern summer season

Major Changes from Summer 2016 (UA):
→ UA ORD-PEK down-gauged to 777-200ER instead of 747-400
→ UA ORD-PVG down-gauged to 777-200ER instead of 747-400
→ 777-200ER returns to ORD-GRU, replaces 767-300ER
→ ORD-MEX grows from 7 weekly to 12 weekly
→ UA ORD-SJD decreased to 1 weekly from 2 weekly
→ SAN JOSÉ COSTA RICA (SJO) –2 weekly Boeing 737-800 from S16 CANCELLED
→ NEW GCM, 1 weekly 737-800


Major Changes from Summer 2015 (All carriers excluding AA + UA):
→ Aer Lingus INCREASES frequency from 13 weekly to 14 weekly, utilizes A330-300 on 2 additional weekly frequencies
→ AeroMéxico up-gauges ORD-MEX to 7S8 from 737
→ AeroMéxico increases ORD-GDL from 6 weekly to 13 weekly, up-gauges to 738 from 737
→ Air Canada up-gauges 7 weekly service to YVR to A319 from Embraer-190
→ All Nippon Airways splits TYO operations to 7 weekly ORD - Haneda and 7 weekly ORD - Narita from 14 weekly ORD - Narita
→ Asiana replaces 777-200ER with 777-200LR, removal of First class
→ Austrian replaces 7 weekly 777-200ER with 767-300ER on ORD-VIE
→ British Airways goes entirely 747-400 on ORD-LHR, vs. 7x 744 and 7x 77W in S16
→ Cayman Airways increases from 1 to 2 weekly flights to GCM
→ China Eastern DECREASES weekly frequencies from 7 to 5 on ORD - PVG
→ COPA increases service on ORD-PTY from 7 weekly to 14 weekly
→ Frontier ADDS new ORD-CUN service, 7 weekly
→ Hainan DECREASES capacity on ORD-PEK from 7 to 4 weekly
→ Iberia DECREASES capacity on ORD-MAD from 10x to 7x [Airbus A330-300 (7x), Airbus A340-600(3x)] but up-gauge to all A346
→ Icelandair INCREASES service on ORD-KEF from 4 weekly to 7 weekly
→ NEW Interjet ORD-MEX, 14 weekly
→ NEW/Resumed LOT service on ORD-KRK, 1 weekly, last served in 2009/2010
→ SAS resumes A340-300 on ORD-CPH, replaces A330-300
→ SWISS adds 6x weekly 77W to ORD-ZRH, maintains A333 on 5x, overall frequencies down 1x from 12 in 2016 to 11 in 2017, but next capacity up
→ NEW EVA Air nonstop service, ORD to TPE, 77W
→ Virgin Atlantic 7 weekly Airbus A330-300 service to London Heathrow CANCELLED
→ Volaris INCREASES ORD-GDL from 2 to 7 weekly, ORD-MEX from 7 weekly to 14 weekly, and new MTY service 3x weekly

[denizen467]

^ Thanks for posting!

The T5 extra gates can't come soon enough.

[denizen467]

So it seems this summer will see the kickoff of the Boeing 797, with a couple hundred orders anticipated and UA as a prospective launch customer. It's to be a long-contemplated middle-of-market aircraft, replacing the discontinued 757 and to some extent 767, addressing the market between the 737 and 787. It won't be in service until the middle of the 2020s, but it seems they have taken a leap of faith and decided it will be a twin-aisle. This is a little curious since it is probably less fuel efficient than a slender, long aircraft, and also starts getting close to overlapping with the 787. Airbus is already mocking this decision, though it could just be sour grapes. A twin-aisle would board/deplane faster, but the jet is targetted to routes of like five hours or more, so those benefits would be overshadowed by the fuel inefficiency.

For the guys here familiar with airport operations, are longer fuselages more gate-constrained and short wider jets easier to assign to gates, or to taxi? (And I wonder which type would have the broader wingspan?) Trying to understand airport-related factors driving the widebody decision. Looking at gate inadequacy issues at ORD for example, it seems wingspan is a bigger problem than length, but I'm not really sure. Glad though that the new T2 project will be able to take all this into consideration.

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-07/united-looks-at-boeing-s-paper-plane-and-likes-what-it-sees

[spyguy]

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by spyguy

Wow! Can't wait to see it. We haven't visited to Chicago for a long time.

[kbud]

Thanks for posting. I've been looking for concepts of this but I couldn't find any. How many gates will they have, or will they have only the additional 4 in the rendering?

It is going to be a long walk for connections now. After thinking about it, I'm wondering why AA didn't want to use more of the existing L concourse and have the new gates for the low cost carriers at ORD.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by kbud

Thanks for posting. I've been looking for concepts of this but I couldn't find any. How many gates will they have, or will they have only the additional 4 in the rendering?

It is going to be a long walk for connections now. After thinking about it, I'm wondering why AA didn't want to use more of the existing L concourse and have the new gates for the low cost carriers at ORD.

5 E-175 gates

AA is footing the bill so it's for their use.

[kbud]

Thanks. That'll be a long connection from some of the gates in the G, H or K concourses. Anyone know if there will be moving sidewalks? Speaking of sidewalks, I was surprised United removed them from T1.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by kbud

Thanks. That'll be a long connection from some of the gates in the G, H or K concourses. Anyone know if there will be moving sidewalks? Speaking of sidewalks, I was surprised United removed them from T1.

Indeed it is. They already removed it a while ago. They won't need it anymore. Because the those children were playing the moving sidewalks.

[CanesFan]

Originally Posted by spyguy

If the rendering is accurate, that's going to be a narrow apron alleyway between concourses.

[kbud]

ORD = O'hare Regional Destination

Are these new gates only capable of handling American Eagle planes? And does this kill any chance of ORD ever having a T4? The OMP over a decade old had this whole area being wiped clean for a T4 for One World. Over 20 years ago AA used about 1/2 of the G concourse for regional planes. Then it went to all of G and a few gates in H, K, and L. And now they are adding this L extension. UA did the same thing in T1/T2. They once had only part of the gates in T2 for Express, but now it's all of T2 and most of the gates at the end of the C concourse and after gate B17. Remember when UA had every gate in T2 for mainline with 727s, DC10s, 747s? Same thing for the B and C concourses.

I don't have the specifics, but ORD has to have a higher % of regional jets for a large hub than any other city in the world. Pretty sad when I think of ORD from the 80s and early 90s. It's Delta too. NWA flew DC10s and a 747 to MSP, Delta flew several wide bodies a day to ATL.

[Kngkyle]

Originally Posted by kbud

ORD = O'hare Regional Destination

Are these new gates only capable of handling American Eagle planes? And does this kill any chance of ORD ever having a T4? The OMP over a decade old had this whole area being wiped clean for a T4 for One World. Over 20 years ago AA used about 1/2 of the G concourse for regional planes. Then it went to all of G and a few gates in H, K, and L. And now they are adding this L extension. UA did the same thing in T1/T2. They once had only part of the gates in T2 for Express, but now it's all of T2 and most of the gates at the end of the C concourse and after gate B17. Remember when UA had every gate in T2 for mainline with 727s, DC10s, 747s? Same thing for the B and C concourses.

I don't have the specifics, but ORD has to have a higher % of regional jets for a large hub than any other city in the world. Pretty sad when I think of ORD from the 80s and early 90s. It's Delta too. NWA flew DC10s and a 747 to MSP, Delta flew several wide bodies a day to ATL.

While it's certainly true that airlines don't fly the size of planes they used to, capacity is still considerably higher today than it was when they did. Consumers decided they would rather have hourly 737 flights between cities instead of far fewer DC10/747 flights. Airlines have also historically lost absolutely tons of money but are now printing money.

Also RJs are not what they were in the 00's. 50 seaters are quickly being parked in favor of larger planes. (not 747 larger, but 80+ seaters) ORD was certainly the king of RJs but as the 50 seaters are rapidly phased out, ORD also stands to gain the most by the semi-reversal of that strategy. It's the main contributor to why O'Hare passenger traffic grew faster than any US other airport in 2015.

[F1 Tommy]

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

ORD also stands to gain the most by the semi-reversal of that strategy. It's the main contributor to why O'Hare passenger traffic grew faster than any US other airport in 2015.

And also why in 2016 we lost out to LAX, with ORD instead of also gaining it just kept its pace). UA and AA regional seats are way down due to one regional going bankrupt. If you check the amount of seats regional lost at ORD in 2016, that equals almost the amount LAX beat us by(mainline picked up some of the slack only because they had no choice). Also ORD, although it has more international carriers now lost it's share of International traffic coming to the USA compared to the 80's and 90's. International hub buster aircraft(787/A350/777X) will in the long run do the same to LAX.

[denizen467]

Presumably the 777-8 is a "hub buster" but not the 777-9 ? Ie, because the 777-8 is basically like a 777-300"ULR", where the 777-9 is just a 777-300ER with three extra rows of seats and not much more range. Anyway I wonder how the new generation of aircraft will play out for ORD international routes.

[Kngkyle]

Originally Posted by denizen467

Presumably the 777-8 is a "hub buster" but not the 777-9 ? Ie, because the 777-8 is basically like a 777-300"ULR", where the 777-9 is just a 777-300ER with three extra rows of seats and not much more range. Anyway I wonder how the new generation of aircraft will play out for ORD international routes.

More international destinations but less capacity to the international megahubs that can now support non-stops to 2nd and 3rd tier US cities. LHR being the most obvious example.

[LaSalle.St.Station]

Is there any chance that Southwest one day could be a financier of another Ohare terminal as Midway is about operationaly maxed out.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by LaSalle.St.Station

Is there any chance that Southwest one day could be a financier of another Ohare terminal as Midway is about operationaly maxed out.

I think this is in the realm of possibility these days. Southwest's aversion to high landing fee/congested airports is a thing of the distant past. The rise of discount international carriers servicing Europe and Asia could make natural feeders for them as well.

[denizen467]

^ But aren't profit margins on these flights pretty thin? Especially since they have no business class. ORD landing fees are high and rising.

I wonder what routes would make sense even if isolated at ORD away from their MDW hub.

Unless it were kept to the same scale as Spirit and other discounters at ORD, UA and AA would scream bloody murder about this.