Project 200 Information

[nova9]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I suspect there were more people living on Prior, Union, Venables and Adanac streets who were relieved to know their homes and neighbourhoods WEREN'T going to be sacrificed to the pro-freeway elites as part of the 'urban renewal' schemes.

Indeed, my dad had told stories to me of when protested against the freeway. The freeway would have torn apart the Chinese community back in the day as Chinese-Canadians were concentrated in that area (unlike today).

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by nova9

Indeed, my dad had told stories to me of when protested against the freeway. The freeway would have torn apart the Chinese community back in the day as Chinese-Canadians were concentrated in that area (unlike today).

If we had gone down that route as a city, Vancouver would have wound up in spirit being Seattle's little brother, not Portland's big brother.

[nova9]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

If we had gone down that route as a city, Vancouver would have wound up in spirit being Seattle's little brother, not Portland's big brother.

and we would've had to spend money removing it all a la Big Bid in Boston or with the Alaskan Viaduct removal in Seattle.

[Pinion]

No we wouldn't. Chinatown/the east side near the inlet is still a dump. People just end up driving 80km/h down Powell/1st.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I suspect there were more people living on Prior, Union, Venables and Adanac streets who were relieved to know their homes and neighbourhoods WEREN'T going to be sacrificed to the pro-freeway elites as part of the 'urban renewal' schemes.

It's a mixed bag though, I know a lot of people around here would like all the traffic going down Prior to go around the neighbourhood rather than straight through it. The East-West freeway plan had some merit, but it really should have been realigned in the the industrial lands.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I suspect there were more people living on Prior, Union, Venables and Adanac streets who were relieved to know their homes and neighbourhoods WEREN'T going to be sacrificed to the pro-freeway elites as part of the 'urban renewal' schemes.

Which is one alignment, instead of the three separate arterials now taking up the traffic. And take a look at where the proposed freeway would have run - hint: it wasn't proposed for the elites' use.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by nova9

Indeed, my dad had told stories to me of when protested against the freeway. The freeway would have torn apart the Chinese community back in the day as Chinese-Canadians were concentrated in that area (unlike today).

But as you point out the Chinese-Canadian community by and large moved on anyway. Once they had the chance (ie. racist covenants still restricted Chinese from living in British Properties up to the mid-sixties) they wanted what most Vancouverites wanted, a newer, nicer house with a bigger yard.

And the freeway would not have been taken down as the Alaskan Viaduct is. That removal was hastened by the 2001 earthquake. Unless of course there was a major earthquake here since 1970 that I missed.

And despite the typical Priceian auto-hate in the original link, its clear to see how many downtown streets would have been "liberated" from the tyranny of the evil auto by having traffic flow directly from the freeway into underground parking. Not too mention the benefit to Stanley Park by having so much surface traffic removed from the causeway.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Which is one alignment, instead of the three separate arterials now taking up the traffic. And take a look at where the proposed freeway would have run

looks like it goes thru carrall street.

you would prefer to demolish areas for a freeway right-of-way thru a national historic area than what is present now?

[mezzanine]

But as you point out the Chinese-Canadian community by and large moved on anyway.

I'm glad you know what's best for them.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

I'm glad you know what's best for them.

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you denying that Chinese-Canadians were increasingly leaving Chinatown behind as a residential area as they became more affluent

Sure, maybe there is a sentimental attachment, but there's no shortage of forumers gleefully advocating laying waste to neighborhoods in favour of taller buildings. Or even not so tall. The Cambie corridor could be seen as an interesting study in postwar functional domestic architecture, but I don't see many here fighting to retain it.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I'm not sure what your point is.

I think you do understand my point.

Sure, maybe there is a sentimental attachment

Although 'place of local and national historic importance' is more in line of what I, the CoV and the federal govt regard chinatown as.

Are you denying that Chinese-Canadians were increasingly leaving Chinatown behind as a residential area as they became more affluent

i'm not denying chinatown's demographics are changing; but then again, i'm not advocating for the destruction of large swaths of chinatown's built enviornment for a freeway right-of-way.

and you didn't answer my question:

you would prefer to demolish areas for a freeway right-of-way thru a national historic area than what is present now?

[nova9]

To track the history of the Chinese that came and then the Hong Kongers that followed then the Taiwanese and now the new Mainland Chinese would be a whole other beast. But largely, it wasn't so much the departure of the Chinese that were already there but the arrival of the new wave in the 80's/90's that took the activity of my community out of Chinatown and to the outlying areas of Vancouver of the suburbs.

But my point about Seattle or Boston was more about why do we always look back at these aborted freeways and pine for them when other cities are getting rid of them?

[Metro-One]

Because Seattle and Boston are not getting rid of their freeways, they are simply replacing their mistakes now with how how their freeways should have been built in the first place.

And this is the problem with Vancouver is their balc and white appraoch to highways.

Vancouver mindset all highways / expressways / connectors = the devil.

Highway lovers = all highways, any form, are our saviors!

The truth = the middle

Vancouver would actually benefit from 1 or 2 well implemented (in respect to the urban fabric) 4 lane tolled expressways. Such expressways though would have to built akin to a Japanese or European expressway with narrow shoulders (small footprint) and 60 to 70 km hour design speeds. None of these ridiculous American urban expressways with 100 km h speeds + with huge footprints.

That is why it is good project 200 and t he other 60's era freeways were not built in Vancouver, but building nothing road wise has only made things worse in the city.

I just completed a built environment GIS study (I will share the website on here soon) and the top 5 locations for serious injury vehicle accidents in the entire lower mainland are all along Granville, Knight street and Marine in Vancouver proper with 50kmh speed limits

This is because these streets, with the lack of true heavy road artery, have become de facto freeways / expressways. The traffic is still there, and it wont go away, especially the commercial and industrial traffic. It is actually madness for "local" residential roads. And putting up more traffic calming only makes these main routes worse through some of our findings.

Again, a north south 4 lane tolled expressway (free for commercial and industrial traffic) would do wonders for streets such as Granville, Knight, Cambie, etc...

Such an artery would not have to go downtown either, but maybe meet up around Main street and connect to a future North Shore Bridge crossing when the Lion's gate is retired.

[mezzanine]

I would agree with your sentiment, but with a few issues:

1) I agree with road pricing and other things like vehicle levies, but that'd be even a tough political sell. (see: ujjal dosanjh and christy clark).

2) an elevated north/south expressway? Let's not think of the blowback of trying to convince people of a new elevated expressway in vancouver. knight st at mid day weekdays is not that congested in my experience, except at the bridge, which road-pricing/tolls should resolve.


if anything, IMO the volume of downtown commerical traffic has been greatly reduced in part to traffic management at the port of vancouver. even though container traffic has greatly increased in the past 20 years, people haven't seen a difference as most of the flow is shunted off at the port road at mcGill. further improvements there, such as the stewart street overpass will greatly improve effeciancies with little impacts to local residents. you'd have a stronger argument to put expressways thru chinatown to downtown if the trailer ferry to the island still loaded up at coal harbour, but it doesn't now.

[Metro-One]

hence my proposal would be in conjunction with a new Burrard Inlet crossing to retire the Lion's Gate bridge from general traffic use.

Plus, such a roadway could be largely cut and covered in many areas, trenched in others, and maybe only have short elevated section leading up to the bridge over the port lands and maybe Hastings.

And again, such an urban expressway would have small shoulders, 60km hour speeds (therefore making a much smaller footprint) and can be better incorporated into the urban form akin to Japan and Europe, where, believe it or not, they are still building urban expressways in countless cities. Drove some beautiful new ones in Scandinavia, Germany and France this last summer.

It is just like transit. We need backbone routes (skytrain). If everything is the same non articulated bus you create a cluster fuck. And yes, many find the sky train guide ways ugly / poor urban environment (that is largely a lack of will to incorporate them over the past 25 years), but they are a necessary situation where one puts functionality before aesthetics.

I missed my ferry the other day because it took over an hour to travel from south Van to Horseshoe Bay. Not many other cities in the developed world have that terrible of a road network to reach key features (especially given that all the #99 cross region traffic has to funnel through Vancouver's local streets, through downtown and accross a 3 lane bridge

Having a free flow toll expressway as I explained earlier circumnavigate all this mess and crossing Burrard neat Main street would be a far superior urban realm.

again, I hate Vancouver's black and white approach to roads.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

I think you do understand my point.

Although 'place of local and national historic importance' is more in line of what I, the CoV and the federal govt regard chinatown as.

No, I don't understand your point. Ethic enclaves have always shifted over time. Why is Chinatown more significant that Commercial Drive's Little Italy? Let's be honest, other than a few recessed balconies, is the architecture really any more interesting than numerous other neighbourhoods of the same age in Vancouver? Should the West End have been preserved in aspic circa 1950, with its unique Queen Anne style wooden homes? Should Burkeville have been fozen in time to preserve its unque company town architecture, rather than have it being redeveloped as it is now with McMansions? Historic Site designation is often more political than aything else.

Originally Posted by mezzanine

i'm not denying chinatown's demographics are changing; but then again, i'm not advocating for the destruction of large swaths of chinatown's built enviornment for a freeway right-of-way.

and you didn't answer my question:

you would prefer to demolish areas for a freeway right-of-way thru a national historic area than what is present now?

Yes.

The significance to its community was already changing. Contrary to popular belief, the Chinese immigrating to Canada post 1965 wasn't settling in Chinatown, anymore than the Japanese settled around around Powell Street post 1949.

Given the choice between sacrificing one neighbourhood, versus what was sacrificed around other arterials, why do you pick Chinatown?

[mezzanine]

^If you are saying - "yes, I think swaths of chinatown should be demolished for a freeway right of way" we'll agree to disagree.

If I have to explain the historical importance of chinatown and strathcona to you i don't think i'll be successful. Perhaps nova9's dad might do a better job.

It began in 1959 with the announcement that great swaths of Strathcona houses (described as a “blight” on the cityscape) would be demolished to make way for new apartment buildings and a freeway connector. The residents of those houses—the majority of them Chinese—would be able to move to a new development near Boundary Road and the Lougheed Highway. One block of the neighborhood was razed in 1959, eight more by 1965

(where is this? i think it is the future ray-cam site?)

http://blog.evelazarus.com/homehisto...banrenewal.jpg

[Alex Mackinnon]

Yup. That's the Orthodox church that's on part of the Ray-Cam site. The 800 block of Keefer is what's visible on the left.

[phesto]

Found another picture of Project 200:


project 200 vancouver by bizoid, on Flickr

Note the Hovercraft coming into dock (Lol).

[officedweller]

Looks straight out of Logan's Run.