The next GVRD rapid transit line?

[officedweller]

Posted by Mr. X over at SSC from Gordon Price's blog:

MAJOR EVERGREEN LINE/GATEWAY PROJECT UPDATE

According to Gordon Price, this is coming from a very reliable source:
http://pricetags.wordpress.com


Regarding the Evergreen Line, a mayor of an eastern municipality is convinced an announcement is coming soon. Perhaps at the UBCM. The mayor also thinks that the Evergreen Line will take the southwest route along Lougheed AND a branch will head off over the Port Mann to Guildford (maybe further).

I wouldn’t be surprised if rail goes to Walnut Grove and then down 200th to Willowbrook and Langley Centre. Jordan Bateman, a Langley councillor and Liberal insider has been pushing light rail on 200th.

There is massive development being planned along the Lougheed United Boulevard corridor included Fraser Mills and Riverview. Both United and Lougheed are lined with low density retail and industrial development which Wilson seems keen on redeveloping.

The southwest route is significantly less expensive than the northwest route due to the lack of tunnelling. If the construction of the Guildford branch is concurrent with the highway expansion, the cost to Coquitlam Centre and Guildford would be similar of the northwest route to just Coquitlam Centre.

The southwest route also means there is a old Canada Line tunnel boring machine sitting around that could be used for the Millennium Line extension. It also means that the Evergreen Line won’t be going through Port Moody which might be why Trassolini is not very happy.

It seems odd in the RFP that they are building the space for light rail now. This is an extra expense that will not increase the revenue in the first few years of operation. Rail over the bridge both in the short and long term will likely generate more revenue than using the two lanes reserved for light rail for general purpose traffic.

Rail also protects project revenue against increases in gas prices and TDM measures designed to reduce automobile use because as car use and revenue goes down, rail use and revenue would go up.

Since most of the opposition to the expansion is coming from Vancouver and Burnaby, the province might also choose to delay the expansion west of Coquitlam.

It also wouldn’t surprise me if the Gateway Program is moved over to the new TransLink. It always seemed rather cumbersome to have both Ministry of Transportation and TransLink responsible for roads in the region. This could be the real reason why Falcon is rejigging TransLink.

Again all of this is rumor and guesswork. Given Campbell’s ability to outmanoeuvre the opposition, none of this would surprise me at all.

Map posted by Mr. X over at SSC:

Green = original Evergreen Line route, probably now canceled
Red = probably what is now being proposed for the Evergreen Line, to be part of the Gateway program
Blue = proposed bus corridor by Translink and City of Surrey, will be LRT in the future

an edited version of paradigm4's map that starts from Lougheed.

[argon007]

Originally Posted by squeezied

i voted for "Vancouver - Other"

specifically, 41st ave. apparently after the canada line is built, there will be a b-line on 41st ave. but then again, there already is an express bus there... but anyhow, considering the trend how b-lines are eventually replaced by a rapid transit line, i think it's pretty cool in that one day there may be a subway running along 41st ave from joyce station to ubc! when the millenium line extenstion gets crowded, i think it would be appropiate to consider a line running down 41st.

I hope that B-Line extend to BCIT Burnaby Campus or Brentwood Station, because

1. BCIT student who is from vancouver will go to school by
a. the bus route 41 (joyce station) and transfer the skytrain (metrotown station) and 130.
b. the bus route 49 (metrotown) and transfer 130.
c. the bus route 25 (i still hope it more frequency at night)

2. BCIT student who is living Richmond will go to school by taking the bus route 410 to 22 st. station and transfering the skytrain (metrotown station). Then taking 130.

it is inconvienience and waste the students' time when the B-Line 91 is not extend to BCIT Burnaby Campus or Brentwood Station.

although it is on the plan of the future 5 years, I still hope it will come true.

[Nutterbug]

130 should also be converted into a B-Line.

[argon007]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

130 should also be converted into a B-Line.

Why? why do you think?
i think it is enough when B-Line 91 Extension is open.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by argon007

I hope that B-Line extend to BCIT Burnaby Campus or Brentwood Station, because

1. BCIT student who is from vancouver will go to school by
a. the bus route 41 (joyce station) and transfer the skytrain (metrotown station) and 130.
b. the bus route 49 (metrotown) and transfer 130.
c. the bus route 25 (i still hope it more frequency at night)

2. BCIT student who is living Richmond will go to school by taking the bus route 410 to 22 st. station and transfering the skytrain (metrotown station). Then taking 130.

it is inconvienience and waste the students' time when the B-Line 91 is not extend to BCIT Burnaby Campus or Brentwood Station.

although it is on the plan of the future 5 years, I still hope it will come true.

Why not take 430 to Metrotown Station directly, then take 130... but during morning rush hours.. it might not be the best choice? I never travell across Knight St. bridge during the morning rush so I'm not sure how it performs then... but it looks horrible from Global 1.

Oh Random note: Global 1 is apparently still flying above Vancouver during News Hour Final!

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by argon007

Why? why do you think?
i think it is enough when B-Line 91 Extension is open.

Because it connects some major high traffic transfer and destination points (Metrotown, BCIT, Brentwood, Kootenay Loop, Phibbs Exchange).

[twoNeurons]

Yeah, BCIT Burnaby is a bit quite inconvenient to transit, despite it being in the centre of things.

There also isn't a CLEAR path of how the best way to get there is. A B-Line would make it a no-brainer for most. I assume it could go down Joyce and then Moscrop to BCIT.

Question is, how well does the Joyce Bus-loop handle the bendy-buses.

Excellent for car drivers though... right off the freeway.

[deasine]

^Well the actual loop itself can't have any articulated buses since there isn't enough space. I heard there was some kind of expansion before.

But if the B-Line was to extend to Brentwood and reach BCIT then it wouldn't matter 'cuz the B-Line just needs to continue down Joyce Road...

[argon007]

Originally Posted by deasine

Why not take 430 to Metrotown Station directly, then take 130... but during morning rush hours.. it might not be the best choice? I never travell across Knight St. bridge during the morning rush so I'm not sure how it performs then... but it looks horrible from Global 1.

Oh Random note: Global 1 is apparently still flying above Vancouver during News Hour Final!

However, at the night there is no 430.
how can the BCIT part-time students who live in Richmond go home at night?

25-B-Line 98?
130-49-B-Line 98?
130-skytrain-410?
130-skytrain-B-Line 98?
130-skytrain-100-B-Line 98?

anyway, i hope the B-Line 91 extends to BCIT or brentwood station especially at night...

it is not also a good idea to take 430 at 3:00-6:00, because the big traffic jam comes on that time near the brigdeport interchange to knight street bridge.

[twoNeurons]

If they're going to extend it they'll take it to Brentwood. That way they can also get ridership from all of North Burnaby to UBC, perhaps lessening the load on the 99 B-line as people take that route instead of staying on until commercial.

[AKA-007]

After Gordon Campbells announcement on January 14th, the major routes proposed are most likely going to be fulfilled.

It will be interesting to see what will be coming next with rapid transit (post 2020). We will be needing it badly by then. We need those new lines now, not in 12 years. This city will only grow and new demands will be formed.

I'm thinking of a millenium/expo expansion down hastings. The track already exists from waterfront station. All there is to do is tunnel under gastown and place the stations. From there, the track could possibly split into millenium/expo again to serve multiple purposes. (I'm thinking 2030 by now) It could have one branch going into burnaby and making a cut N/S through the center of the loop created by the millenium line. that line could connect with metrotown area. The other branch could be made to serve the North Shore over the second narrows or farther on the Hastings area.
(a similar idea was posted on another skytrain related article (Millennium line West (commercial to UBC) translink study - page 2 - post #37 by eduardo88)) http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...=133576&page=2

[officedweller]

I think it's quite likely that the end of the Expo Line would - eventually - end up crossing to the North Shore.

[AKA-007]

I can see at least one line eventually going north. The two narrows are the most likely candidates with the second narrows being the more favourable one(population on both sides of it). Of course, there could be a tunnel under the inlet if the topography worked in favor of it.

I won't be getting my hopes up for a line there anytime soon. I'd like to see it go to hastings area and then a b-line spanning the north shore with a terminus based on how far the line goes (phibbs exchange has the 210/211/214 express to downtown, and the slower city busses 28 and 130 to Joyce and Metrotown.) Some form of expansion would be nice, even if it's a line from downtown to hastings PNE/Highway area.

North Van needs the population to get a line though. So far, the only area that is expanding is lower Lonsdale because of the waterfront and seabus. the rest of the city and district don't really want to expand too much in fear that we won't get any new infrastructure regardless of any expansion. It costs too much to put another bridge across the inlet and there aren't many places to do it. I could see a rapid transit expansion happening in North Van if it was coordinated with densification.

What's on my wish list is a tunnel from lonsdale to downtown under the inlet. make it 2-3 minutes across and run it off of the canada line, then branch it at lonsdale and run it east/west. Expand the expo line to hastings and split it there having one line go to the North Shore and one line going through burnaby.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by AKA-007

I won't be getting my hopes up for a line there anytime soon. I'd like to see it go to hastings area and then a b-line spanning the north shore with a terminus based on how far the line goes (phibbs exchange has the 210/211/214 express to downtown, and the slower city busses 28 and 130 to Joyce and Metrotown.) Some form of expansion would be nice, even if it's a line from downtown to hastings PNE/Highway area.

Don't forget the NIMBY's. They are against a new bus maintenance centre because of fears of increased traffic....and now, the site is a Costco (probably even more traffic). Then, there's that ship-looking condo tower at Lonsdale, NIMBY's are at it again. And most recently, NIMBY's against any expansion of the Capilano Suspension Bridge facilities and attractions. Nevermind, a SkyTrain expansion to their neighbourhood.

I agree. I thought one thing that was missing with the 2020 transit plan was rapid bus in the North Shore, possibly from Central West Vancouver to Central North Vancouver, with a major stop at Lonsdale.

[AKA-007]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

Don't forget the NIMBY's. They are against a new bus maintenance centre because of fears of increased traffic....and now, the site is a Costco (probably even more traffic). Then, there's that ship-looking condo tower at Lonsdale, NIMBY's are at it again. And most recently, NIMBY's against any expansion of the Capilano Suspension Bridge facilities and attractions. Nevermind, a SkyTrain expansion to their neighbourhood.

I have to agree with you here. North and West van have a really high NIMBY population. That will probably hold back the entire area from being expanded, which might be a good thing if those NIMBY's won't allow for more bridges and bus depots.

[officedweller]

As mentioned, North Van is not a growth concentration area and the population may take a very long time to get to the levels required for rapid transit.

[G-Slice]

AHEM without further ado, a fantasy map. Vancouver in 2050!

I don't really think the green line Langley-Coquitlam Centre-UBC routing works... but just an idea. I much prefer the Langley-Maillardville-UBC route. Still keeping the current Coquitlam Centre-Lougheed Centre-UBC stretch, of course.

I'm also on the fence with the routing for the new (hyper extended) White Rock-New Westminster-West End-Kitsilano-Oakridge-Brentwood Expo Line. Should it pass through Joyce or Metrotown? Joyce to me seems a more logical route but we can't ignore the potential of Metrotown as a huge station, considering the amount of traffic it gets even now...

Well let's discuss! Whoo hoo fantasy maps.

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

Don't forget the NIMBY's. They are against a new bus maintenance centre because of fears of increased traffic....and now, the site is a Costco (probably even more traffic).

Actually, much to the chagrin of the residents who chased out the bus facility, the site is now slated to be a "waste management facility".

Say goodbye to those noisy buses. And say hello to Mr. Floatie.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

Actually, much to the chagrin of the residents who chased out the bus facility, the site is now slated to be a "waste management facility".

Say goodbye to those noisy buses. And say hello to Mr. Floatie.

Well, they deserved it.

[G-Slice]

Those goddamned Norgate people. Jesus Christ.

On the subject of the North Shore, though. Although most of the North Shore isn't going to grow very quickly, the potential of the entire Lonsdale corridor to densify is still there. Unlike the rest of the North Shore, Lonsdale is surrounded by decently tall towers up until around 17th St. There are still a bunch going up as I'm sure you're all aware, and there is very little opposition in the neighbourhood since the area has had tall buildings since the 80s. Even where there aren't tall buildings, there are a lot of the three and four story apartments common in South Granville and Kitsilano. On the whole, this part of North Vancouver does pretty well in terms of density.

I have to say, Lonsdale to me really FEELS like a centre of some significance. Lots of foot activity, major destinations along it (Lonsdale Quay, Lions Gate Hospital) and a lot of more minor ones (City Hall/Library Complex, two recreation centres). What's more, it's relatively far away from bridges into the city, which would bring even further appeal to a new transit tunnel built underneath the inlet.

A lot of people advocate building transit over the Second Narrows or the Lions Gate. It seems to me that the benefit from the (probably fairly significant) savings would be more than offset by the futility of building rapid transit going both from and to relatively unimportant destinations. The Lions Gate alignment makes way more sense than the Second Narrows one (really AKA-007?), but ultimately, let's build some NEW infrastructure people. The core of the North Shore should be connected as directly as possible to the core of the entire region.