How to Construct New Buildings with Historical Fascades

[USSGahagan]

Most new mid to highrise buildings all seem to have modern facades (i.e. glass curtain walls, etc.), but I am interested in developing true historical time peices, such as Parisian 1880-1920 and Art Deco (see links below). I understand more labor is involved for masonry work and that the $/SF will be greater (if highrise hard costs=$200/sf then construction for these buildings = $?/SF), but is it possible for these buidings to be built economically? What would be the cost premium compared to a modern facade? Could the detailed masonry work be duplicated? Can any large commercial construction company handle the project?

[Kelvin]

You want to gut the Rockefeller? Sweet!

These types of projects are possible, the single biggest problem in my mind relates to the interior structure. In some of the examples you posted, an internal structural steel frame is most certainly present and that is perhaps better than having a series of internal load bearing walls. The others that you show may have the latter.

I have seen smaller (3 or 4 storey) buildings done by ripping off the roof, pounding out the floors and rebuilding the steel frame all the while keeping the original facade intact (later it gets blast cleaning). The project was a 1880's mill with extensive but generally modest brickwork.

Going into higher buildings may prove challenging (ie. getting a crane mobilised, getting debris moved, etc.), but as long as the frame is generally open, it could be done.

If your frame is more congested, you may have to use temporary shores as floors are removed and replaced with new steel, etc.

I won't hazard a guess for cost because so many variables are at play, but don't expect it to be at the low-end of the spectrum!

[USSGahagan]

Actually I'm thinking of developing these buildings from the ground up. The goal would be for their facades to be constructed with such care and attention to detail that they would be near replicas of buildings from their time periods. I'm curious to know if construction companies could handle the task of re-creating these historical buildings and how they would be able to pull it off. Thoughts? Are any of the major construction companies (Tishman, Swinerton, etc) able to handle this type of job?

[Kelvin]

OK sorry I didn't catch your drift. Building a recreation is decidedly easier (and cheaper) than undertaking a restoration and rebuild. Regardless of which GC (gen. contractor) you elect to use, they would likely source a specialty sub-contractor to do the work. Some of what you are proposing could be done by a concrete precaster. They would build custom molds and form liners that can duplicate any surface texture (rock, stone, brick, etc.), color it to match your desired appearance and even add real insets to the piece. The only trick might be finding a way to hide the joint lines between pieces. Custom metal and glass work is quite common, so you can also expect that there are numerous fabricators capable to cutting or stamping pieces for your project.

[USSGahagan]

I hadn't given any thought to precast concrete. That would be very effective at replicating the limestone work of old European buildings at a fraction of the cost (hopefully). This concept seems to be falling in line with historic preservation and with your lead on specialty subs I've found some good specialty construction companies!

[bluedogok]

Cast stone would be your best bet for recreating something like the old hand carved stone elements. If you could find something to make molds of that would make it somewhat cheaper. You might look for some of these items in architectural markets. The was a building that I was the project manager on where we reused some of the old cast stone elements (original building stone and rosettes) and we ended up making some new cast stone pieces to go around the rosettes to make them stand out.

This was the original building built in 1930



It was stripped down to its bare cast-in-place concrete structure.


The facade is completely new, the owner wanted a look similar to the new ballpark across the street.



You can do quite a bit with cast stone to create a "vintage" look without a ridiculous cost. On that project the water table was the bulk of the cast stone cost. Our first floor was 4' above grade so that created such a large water table. Brick work can also be used to create a different look for a lower cost, I see many older buildings that have detailed brickwork.

[Drmyeyes]

All of this is very interesting. Is the greater expense of a restoration and rebuild due to the great care involved in stripping out the insufficient structural elements in preparation for rebuild? It seems as though there could be a lot of support for such an approach in spite of the extra effort and cost where original standing materials in a good building could be used.

Is the additional cost for example, twice, triple, or completely variable?

That's an admirable transformation bluedogok, but for myself, I actually prefer the styling of the original building. Nice though, to show what can be done.

[wong21fr]

There's a couple of buildings in Denver that were built in a similar style to what you propose, one of these is the Beauvallon completed in 2004 (Images courtesy of DenverInfill.com):

[smurf]

There is a small building going up around here with pre-cast panels. In fact, I believe the whole thing is practically a "building in a box" (some assembly required). Here is a picture by Hankster http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...5/P1060058.jpg

[Minato Ku]

Facadism
exemple in Paris where this method is very common


Mix of old facade and new facade common in Paris.


Or post Haussmannian building
New residencial buiding build with the Haussmannian facade style. less common in Paris but very common in inner suburbs.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by USSGahagan

I hadn't given any thought to precast concrete. That would be very effective at replicating the limestone work of old European buildings at a fraction of the cost (hopefully). This concept seems to be falling in line with historic preservation and with your lead on specialty subs I've found some good specialty construction companies!

Unless you can hire some European craftsman to custom carve the facade pieces, which could take years, you don't really have much choice.

Do you just have a passive interest on this topic, or are you seriously thinking of developing a piece of faux-historic architecture? In any case, you would need an architect to go anywhere beyond mere speculation.

However, technology and building codes have changed so much from the 1800s that what you are asking is essentially impossible - you can build a modern box with a faux-historic looking facade, but that's about as close as you'll ever get.



Just as it is somewhat ridiculous to modify a honda civic into a 1000 horsepower racecar, it would probably be much better to actually buy a period building and renovate it. You just can't replicate history, the craftsmanship, nor the building methods of the past.

[Dr. Smoke]

Disagree zilfondel. There is a majestic old high school south of Seattle, which was painstakingly renovated and strengthened for seismic. It cost $millions more than it would have to start from scratch, and I guess in return they retained many of the original molecules of the structure!

I think it's wonderful to style a building with evolutionary continuity. Those Paris buildings are a great example; other cities such as Prague and St. Petersburg have some of the most beautiful buildings in the world; they will last architecturally, and will always command a premium over conventional modernist.

The cost of any building has more to do with the quality of construction, than its appearance. Sure cultured stone will add some to the cost, but that won't be noticeable compared with cheap quality versus high quality structure and fit-out.

Best thing is to find a building you like, investigate it, and if it passes muster and is a newer building, find the architect. If it's an old building you like, find a newer building you approve of and ask that architect to render your old one. Much better than leaving them to their own (often incompetent) taste of style.

It's pretty easy to find companies that do cultured stone, extruded fiberglass moldings, and period fixtures, with resources such as Sweet's catalog, et al. Heck, you can get your own slightly out-of-date Sweet's CD for free, if you sweet-talk enough architects. Some amazing things in Sweet's, and other resources.

[bryson662001]

This building in Philadelphia is not new and the red brick is very real. However the facade was rather plain and the lower floors had a 70's era metal and glass skin so new owners decided to dress it up. All the work on the lower floors that looks like carved limestone.......is in fact styrofoam, stucco and molded plastic. Notice how there isn't anything on the ground floor holding up all that "weight"? Not only is the material incredably real looking but it is weathering just like real stone. The windows are new also. (the building to it's left is the real thing)

[Daquan13]

The Hearst Tower is one example of that.

The base that surrounds the tower has an old facade from a previous bldg..

[bryson662001]

Originally Posted by Daquan13

The Hearst Tower is one example of that.

The base that surrounds the tower has an old facade from a previous bldg..

You may have misunderstood. The base of the building I posted is brand new. My point was that if they can slap that stuff on an old building.....they could also slap it onto a Wall-Mart.......thus recreating a 17th century French palace at a modest cost.

[BTinSF]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Unless you can hire some European craftsman to custom carve the facade pieces, which could take years, you don't really have much choice.

As most of us surely know, colleges and universities all over America have been doing this "new buildings looking old" thing for more than a century. Here. for example, is a photo of the new/old Duke Univeristy Chapel. Colleges like Duke have enough money to do it the right way--Duke did, in fact, import squads of Italian stone carvers in the 1930's:

[zilfondel]

So... just what is the reasoning behind having a Wal-Mart with a facade that looks like a 17th century French villa?

Please? Anyone?

[bryson662001]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

So... just what is the reasoning behind having a Wal-Mart with a facade that looks like a 17th century French villa?

Please? Anyone?

Go back and read post #1......for the theme of this thread.

[Holden West]

I dislike this practice of slathering buildings with fiberglas and plastic pieces that are supposed to look like stone or terra cotta. It smacks of phoniness. The resulting building lacks integrity and mocks the real materials. We are denying future generations authentic heritage by giving them unrestorable plastic.

A material should be able to tell the viewer what it is by looking at it. I don't like architecture that fools people any more than I would like going into an art museum or opera house to see a classic work only to be told it was a modern piece disguised as a 19th Century work. [/rant]

[Rizzo]

I remember digging through the sample room once of a firm I worked at. In the masonry section crammed way off on some side shelf I found something horrible. Foam cornices. It's true. You know that type of Styrofoam you get in the box when you buy a new tv? Same stuff. Then they spray a coating over it that looks like limestone. I was happy to find out my firm was not using that stuff, but instead using REAL limestone when constructing cornice work. Not to mention, we use casts from older buildings to produce new pieces, so our masonry detailwork was 100% accurate and proportioned, not gaudy, oversized, and tacky you see with many sloppy recreations.