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  #21  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 3:08 AM
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Originally Posted by van Hemessen View Post
Yep that's the solution. Send all the poor people away.

As someone who spent 5 years of his childhood living in affordable housing in downtown London with a single mother I find this attitude truly disgusting.
Why do you single me out for attack? Other people in the thread refer to "weirdos", "crackheads" and "bums" hanging out around Dundas. Where do you think these people live? Westmount? Frankly, I don't know why you're so terribly offended. I did not necessarily endorse this method as being the end-all-be-all solution for all problems in this city, merely that it would be part of the solution for the issue at hand. It certainly worked well for all the Old Money Liberals who used to run Metro Toronto. They didn't want the "bums" loitering around in their ritzy downtown neighbourhoods, so they stuffed all the new Ontario Housing complexes in North York and Scarberia. The Intersections of Jane Street and Finch Avenue West, as well as Markham Road and Eglinton Avenue East, are monuments to the success of their self-interested experiments.

Personally, I grew up living right near a public housing complex (Sparroways) at Finch Avenue E. and Leslie Street in North York, and it caused absolutely no end of problems for the surrounding residents (Robberies, aggravated assaults, drugs, etc. Finch and Leslie has since been cleaned up, used to be much worse in the 1990s). Granted, most people in Ontario Housing are not lawbreakers, but you must understand why these developments attract such negative stigma. It takes a certain concentration of bad apples before the NIMBYism starts to set in, and most of these complexes meet that concentration requirement.

Last edited by Wharn; Jul 8, 2011 at 3:32 AM.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 3:23 AM
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Everyone's right, my London should cater to the needs of the white and privileged. Those not fitting in both categories shall live in the sewer!
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  #23  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 4:04 AM
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What the hell are you talking about?
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  #24  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 9:11 AM
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I know what to do. London should build a raised freeway threw the core, so the homeless can live under it and the rich can drive on it.

All that’s left is an oversized tower in the sky to get over London’s small tower syndrome.

I really think Dundas should be a transit mall with a BRT running down it. Transit terminals don’t work in larger cities. A downtown is a neighbourhood with not a single destination like a mall ect.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Wharn View Post
Why do you single me out for attack? Other people in the thread refer to "weirdos", "crackheads" and "bums" hanging out around Dundas.
Sorry for singling you out but I find the comment that no public housing should be allowed within a mile of Dundas to be fairly extreme.

Many abrasive, criminal and generally undesirable people live in public housing but most public housing residents are not like that.

Am I the only one here who doesn't think the concentration of homeless and low-income people on Dundas is a problem?

My prediction: Dundas between Talbot and Richmond is going to improve dramatically over the next 5-10 years. The bums and crackheads will still be there, as in pretty much every other North American city, but they'll be less noticeable.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 2:38 PM
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Although I have been to a few European cities before, it still absolutley amazes me how the small city of 40 000 that I'm in can have such amazing density and how there are probably the same, if not more, people downtown in the evenings than London.

Anyways, I say get the buses and parking off Dundas, build a bus terminal (I don't want Queens and King soiled at the expense of Dundas), widen the sidewalk, improve the streetscape, and hold pedestrian only evenings once a week. If all goes well, then we can consider making it a pedestrian only. However, if Fontanta is crazy enough to do this now, then I'd be alright with him giving it a try. At least he has visionary ideas, although they are sometimes problematic. I'll take them any day over the slow and steady monotony that makes this city so boring sometimes.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 2:48 PM
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Having been in numerous downtown areas in North America, I would say London ranks among the worst for undesirables in the downtown area. It is definitely worse than Ottawa and Kingston.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 9:11 PM
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No I totally agree that the homeless and trouble causers at Dundas and Richmond are just smoke and noise. I would worry a lot more about the gangsters or want to be gangsters rolling around in nice cars and good cloths with guns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by van Hemessen View Post
My prediction: Dundas between Talbot and Richmond is going to improve dramatically over the next 5-10 years. The bums and crackheads will still be there, as in pretty much every other North American city, but they'll be less noticeable.
In busy cities I think the homeless just blend into the bigger crowed.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 11:49 PM
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^ But those of us that live downtown don't have to deal with the 'wannabe gangsters with nice cars' (which I think are very few and far between in London anyway).

Some people don't want to live in downtown London because they see too many of these undesirable folk just creepily hanging around. Whether it's politically correct to say or not, part of making the downtown more attractive for new residents, visitors, and tourists is to come up with ways to encourage their dispersal.

Last edited by Blitz; Jul 10, 2011 at 8:44 PM.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2011, 1:09 AM
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Whether it's politically correct to say or not, part of making the downtown more attractive for new residents, visitors, and tourists is to come up with ways to discourage their dispersal.
I think you mean "encourage" their dispersal.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2011, 1:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by new age View Post
I know what to do. London should build a raised freeway threw the core, so the homeless can live under it and the rich can drive on it.
I can't tell if this is a troll post or not, but anyways, that was originally the plan. Anyone have a map of the Thames Valley Parkway? In the meantime, it should also be noted that not everyone with a car is automatically "rich". If I was rich, I'd sure as hell be driving a Benz or a Lexus, not a friggin' Saturn.

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Originally Posted by new age View Post
No I totally agree that the homeless and trouble causers at Dundas and Richmond are just smoke and noise. I would worry a lot more about the gangsters or want to be gangsters rolling around in nice cars and good cloths with guns.
I don't know what London you're living in, but here all the "gangsters in nice cars" are either walking everywhere or driving around in a pimped-out Mazda 323.

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Originally Posted by van Hemessen View Post
Sorry for singling you out but I find the comment that no public housing should be allowed within a mile of Dundas to be fairly extreme.
Again, I did not endorse this solution, I merely said it would work as part of a strategy to make Dundas more upscale. As I previously said, it worked very well for the City of Toronto, not so well for the inner ring of suburbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by van Hemessen View Post
Many abrasive, criminal and generally undesirable people live in public housing but most public housing residents are not like that.
Which is unfortunate, because those few undesirables are what cause people to avoid areas with a high concentration of public housing. Perhaps a better solution, rather than remove the said housing, is to simply permanently remove people who are convicted of serious criminal offences. Then, with some luck, public housing complexes would be just like any other working class neighbourhood: safe and secure, nothing to worry about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by van Hemessen View Post
Am I the only one here who doesn't think the concentration of homeless and low-income people on Dundas is a problem?
It's not a problem into and on to itself, but it is indicative of a wider economic problem. Ask yourself: What is wrong with our downtown if it is unable to attract much else other than the homeless or low-income people? Furthermore, what is wrong with our city as a whole if so many people are unable to pull themselves out of poverty?
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  #32  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2011, 7:37 PM
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
I think you mean "encourage" their dispersal.
Totally. See, some of those Dundas/Richmond creeps are rubbing off on me and making me stupider.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2011, 9:08 PM
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If the city was serious about getting rid of the low-lifes from the core it should.

1) Moves Buses off Dundas to King/Queen in their respective directions between Wellington & Rideout.
2) Move OW offices out of Market Tower or at least have satellite offices in areas that warrant it to keep them in their areas.
3) Using zoning by-laws to keep out business that peddle to low-lifes, cheque cashing stores, pawn shops etc.
4) Enforce current loitering laws

Ultimately the City has talked and talked this up, but never seems to have the balls to pull the trigger and do any of these. Whether it's due to their weakness of any backlash from poverty activists or not wanting a confrontation, they never seem to have a real solution.

Things like that would help revitalize the core more than some crackpot idea of a permanent pedestrian mall!
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  #34  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2011, 4:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wharn View Post
It's not a problem into and on to itself, but it is indicative of a wider economic problem. Ask yourself: What is wrong with our downtown if it is unable to attract much else other than the homeless or low-income people? Furthermore, what is wrong with our city as a whole if so many people are unable to pull themselves out of poverty?
London's downtown is starting to attract some upper-class folks, but to this point it seems there aren't many middle-class folks.

The lack of ability to pull oneself out of poverty is a complex issue. Certainly in London there is a lack of meaningful employment available, and even the non-meaningful employment is starting to disappear (i.e. the call centers). But, on the other side, there are some people in poverty who don't manage their finances well, throwing money away on cigarettes and cable TV subscriptions. Definitely not all, but there are some like that.

These problems aren't isolated to downtown either. Even in Byron, generally a middle-to-upper class area, there is some public housing. The amount of garbage strewn around on the side of the road near that housing is comparable to the areas around Western and Fanshawe, far greater than other parts of the city. I saw old computer equipment dumped there last fall, it stayed there buried under snow all winter, and wasn't cleaned up until May; in any event there's always garbage laying around in the area.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2011, 7:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Simpseatles View Post
Although I have been to a few European cities before, it still absolutley amazes me how the small city of 40 000 that I'm in can have such amazing density and how there are probably the same, if not more, people downtown in the evenings than London.

Anyways, I say get the buses and parking off Dundas, build a bus terminal (I don't want Queens and King soiled at the expense of Dundas), widen the sidewalk, improve the streetscape, and hold pedestrian only evenings once a week. If all goes well, then we can consider making it a pedestrian only.
This is no question the most logical first step, Joe just needs to make it happen. Yes you are going to piss some people off in the short term mostly in regards to the re-routing of buses however if they get a downtown terminal built along with re-routing it would actually dramatically improve the downtown busing system. I also feel it would increase ridership in the long term.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 12:21 AM
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I think you guys are kind of exaggerating the bum issue. All downtowns have homeless people panhandling and punk kids roaming the streets. Maybe I just don't notice the riffraff as much as the next guy because my mom frequently brought me downtown as a kid. I suppose I always figured people just found it overwhelming to come down once a month and see all the crazies compared to their little crescent in the 'burbs.

While I completely agree with the 4 points Pimpmaster mentioned, I definitely don't think they would fully solve DnR's problems. It's downtown, guys. People loiter, there are crowds, areas occasionally smell like piss. I just don't get why people constantly say "we need to fix Dundas and Richmond." All of downtown needs work and one or two more super projects probably won't completely revitalize downtown. Of course the Fanshawe Art Campus will be fantastic, and a new City Hall or bus terminal would be dynamite, but even after that downtown will need yet more help.

Honestly, I think London needs to continue focusing on increasing downtown's population and strengthening the neighbourhoods to the east and south. I'd imagine a lot of downtown's current problems would disappear / seem less significant if we had more people living here. More activity on the streets, less vacant stores, more art. For the past 4 hours I've been watching my friend paint a mural in the Spageddy Eddy's alley and it's been really cool seeing all the different types of people stop by and take a minute to watch him paint.

On the subject of the Dundas Pedestrian Street idea: I doubt it would be successful. Having these car-free weekends has been great so far and I would certainly welcome more of them, but I don't think a permanent ped mall would be sustainable. I basically agree with everyone who said make it more like King Street in Kitchener. More room for pedestrians and patios while still keeping it open to vehicles. I definitely agree that moving buses off of Dundas would have a hugely positive impact on loitering problems, though.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 12:29 AM
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^ What he said.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 12:28 PM
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Dundas + Richmond is ground zero in Downtown London. It looks and smells like shit. Consider ground zero in downtown Montreal (Peel & Sainte Catherine)...it doesn't look and smell like shit. Our focal intersection must be cleaned up.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 3:19 PM
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Dundas + Richmond is ground zero in Downtown London. It looks and smells like shit. Consider ground zero in downtown Montreal (Peel & Sainte Catherine)...it doesn't look and smell like shit. Our focal intersection must be cleaned up.
Wow, really? The few times that I have been to Dundas and Richmond this year I was amazed by the ammount of activity and the awesome big city vibe it had going on. So there were some less than preferable people there. Oh Dear! And one of the corner stores is currently vacant. Heavens No! And there are fast food establishments around there, that attract the smelly bus taking crowd! Disgusting!

Jeez, and I'm a kid from the burbs, who only recently started going downtown on a regular basis.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 4:09 PM
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^yeah, roll your eyes. I am from Montreal, and lived for years in the downtown core of that city, so please don't patronize me.

You look at things differently when you are walking along the street with your wife and two young children and the stinkos aggressively approach your family for money.

You think the status quo is fine? Okay, let's keep repelling more visitors.

This is not at all attractive: http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=r...-8&sa=N&tab=wl
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