A new downtown for our metro

[Bcasey25raptor]

So knowing that Downtown Vancouver has height restrictions that they never will seem to back down from, is it possible that Burnaby's Metrotown or Brentwood areas could become a new regional centre?

They are both centralized, both are covered by ample transit, both already have plenty of density.

How about Surrey central?

Surrey is now over 500 000 people and is large enough to develop it's own city centre. In fact it seems like it wants to do it already and many ad campaigns show a very dense transit oriented downtown surrey.

Surrey and Burnaby don't have height limits as far as I know so building of extremely tall or extremely diverse skyscrapers is possible in these two cities.

Personally if I could choose I'd want Burnaby to have the regions new second downtown since it is centralized. I feel that the CoV is already dug a hole for themselves and the downtown is turning into what feels like to me as an urban suburb if that makes sense. I feel it's being too overrun with condo buildings and the commercial buildings being planned or built though higher than in recent history, are still cheapened or wind up being shortened by city regulations.

The table top not only lacks height, it lacks diversity.

Burnaby right now has some extremely nice projects and I'm excited for most of them.

So what are your thoughts?
Do you think we will soon have an official secondary downtown?
Do you think Downtown Vancouver will be replaced by surrey or burnaby's offerings?

If this does happen, how do you think it will occur and will it happen in our lifetime?

[Hot Rod]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Do you think we will soon have an official secondary downtown?

Yes, multiple in fact: Burnaby-Metrotown (already exists) and Surrey Central

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Do you think Downtown Vancouver will be replaced by surrey or burnaby's offerings??

No, Vancouver will always be the main city and downtown.

Sooner or later the height restrictions will be lifted and the city will see some major office construction that we've all been hoping for. Looking at Shangri La and it's impact (or rather, lack of impact) should sooth those who fear height impacting views. You could easily add 200 feet to SL and still have incredible views of the mountains that would be enhanced by such an urban edifice (ala Hong Kong).

Judging from the past evolution of downtown Vancouver, the ship will be righted it's just a matter of time on the when and who steps up.

[Vin]

Yup, I can see the possibility of that happening. Vancouver can be pretty stubborn, and even do things detrimental to its own health. I'm pretty sure there was a time when people thought East Hastings would never come to today's decay. Complacency can turn things sour pretty quickly.

When businesses/developers realize how much further they can go in one of the suburb centres, they would likely locate there. Retail is one prime example of how much it has shifted from the downtown core to the suburban centres. There was a time when everything was centralised around East Hastings, but now Metrotown is the new shopping mecca of this region. However, Metrotown or Surrey Central needs to build up a lot more to attract the attention of businesses, especially office developers. To date, there aren't any real downtown-like commercial centres in any of those places: areas with a collection of office buildings need to be established. There are also too many municipalities trying to compete for the piece of pie (New West is putting Anvil Centre downtown but so far hasn't been too successful). Richmond, for one, is building more non-residential structures than other suburban neighbourhoods. There are plans to build high-rise education centres, hotels (including luxury ones), shopping/retail centres, entertainment centres (Casino expansion, etc.) and many others, all within the city centre area. A new comminity centre and Trinity college campus are near completion downtown. Such scale is unprecedented, but it's just too bad they can't build really tall or huge buildings there due to soil conditions and the airport. That would limit their growths to just a regional centre.

Metrotown is a possibility for a new commercial downtown, but a lot has to be done to clear out the old low-rise rental apartments and replace these with a new commercial/cultural/entertainment structures. The streets also need to be widened to cater for the traffic in the future.

Surrey Central is also another possibility, but that place needs even more work.

[TourOdeon]

I don't think so... Most of the rich people live in Vancouver, not in the suburbs (with the exception of West Vancouver). As much as Burnaby or Surrey attempts to compete with Downtown, it is not where tourists want to visit when they come here. Burnaby or Surrey doesnt have Stanley Park, Science World, Gastown, False Creek or GM Place. Vancouver is also situated around other wealthier cities in the province, arguably people who live in North Shores, Richmond and Burnaby have greater buying power than those living in Coquitlam, Surrey, Langley and New Westminster.

[WarrenC12]

Name another city in the world that has shifted its downtown core.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by TourOdeon

I don't think so... Most of the rich people live in Vancouver, not in the suburbs (with the exception of West Vancouver). As much as Burnaby or Surrey attempts to compete with Downtown, it is not where tourists want to visit when they come here. Burnaby or Surrey doesnt have Stanley Park, Science World, Gastown, False Creek or GM Place. Vancouver is also situated around other wealthier cities in the province, arguably people who live in North Shores, Richmond and Burnaby have greater buying power than those living in Coquitlam, Surrey, Langley and New Westminster.

I'm not referring to the next 10 or even 20 years. I'm talking about the future, and maybe even beyond our life-time. There was a time when New West was the primary downtown of the Lower Mainland. Gastown took over. Things do change. But Vancouver's downtown could always remain as the main downtown of this region, but it needs to remove the shackles that are discouraging its growth, allowing other regions to catch up.

[dmuzika]

Other than overall population, how would Seattle & Bellevue compare with Vancouver and Metrotown/Surrey central? Downtown Seattle is still the main commercial core for the region, but Bellevue is the 2nd commercial core.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Name another city in the world that has shifted its downtown core.

Name another city with viewcone/growth limit policies and straddled by other competing urban municipalities/City halls.

And we did have our primary commercial downtown shifted once already: from New West to Gastown!

[Vin]

Originally Posted by dmuzika

Other than overall population, how would Seattle & Bellevue compare with Vancouver and Metrotown/Surrey central? Downtown Seattle is still the main commercial core for the region, but Bellevue is the 2nd commercial core.

Well, you have to admit the fact that downtown Bellevue has grown a lot more in proportion to the growth of downtown Seattle. And it has only been a mere 20 years or so. Assuming these growth trends continue for the 2 commercial centres, would there be a time when Bellevue would outstrip Seattle, say if we project the trends to another 100 years or so later?

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Name another city in the world that has shifted its downtown core.

Many cities have built new CBDs, Paris, Moscow.
Also, our Downtown Eastside was the original downtown for Vancouver, until it shifted west.

That being said, Surrey Metro Centre is the official secondary downtown for Metro Vancouver in the future.

[VarBreStr18]

in short time nice to see this become such an active thread. The offices spaces in Solo and Onni are like pressure relieving valves for downtown. May be there is no need to lift height restriction in downtown afterall. There is really no need to build ever taller skyscraper in downtown..other than to impress the world.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by VarBreStr18

There is really no need to build ever taller skyscraper in downtown..other than to impress the world.

Exactly. Some members of this forum operate in a fantasy land.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

That being said, Surrey Metro Centre is the official secondary downtown for Metro Vancouver in the future.

Yup - what he said...

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yup - what he said...

I found the map that illustrates the policy:

From: https://savesunnysidetrees.wordpress.../clearcutting/

[a very long weekend]

Originally Posted by Vin

Name another city with viewcone/growth limit policies and straddled by other competing urban municipalities/City halls.

this is actually quite a lot more common that you may think. here in sf, it's definitely the case. obviously you get it in most cities where a large group of incumbent residents fights to protect their views/maintain a specific feel or character or density to their neighborhoods. these days, vast swathes of manhattan are zoned to 3-4 stories, you could never do a tower in toronto's annex or miami beach north of 5th and south of the versailles, etc. and let's not even talk about europe.

also, "new towns" like they have in paris or vienna or pudong (or the failed moscow new cbd), or even just like canary wharf - building these new cbds, say in burnaby or surrey, are very expensive and require vast economic resources, large populations and a dirigisme that bc/vancouver metro's government lacks.

so in sum: no, there will be no new cbd; what you're complaining about is a normal tension in many places at this stage in in the development of cities in north america and the western world more broadly.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I found the map that illustrates the policy:

From: https://savesunnysidetrees.wordpress.../clearcutting/

When those municipal town centres (Note Burnaby, Tri-cities and Surrey) expand and eventually join up, that's when a huge highly-urban metropolis is made, and it needs a highly-functional downtown. Vancouver proper has that one large square and one dot at Oakridge. That large square is not going to grow anymore if restrictions continue.

[officedweller]

I've always found it strange how there has never even been a Municipal Town Centre (dot) at Kerrisdale.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I found the map that illustrates the policy:

From: https://savesunnysidetrees.wordpress.../clearcutting/

if we wanted to plan our metro properly, a centralized location would always have been preferable for a downtown core. Knowing this, Burnaby feels like it should have had the defacto downtown of Greater Vancouver.

I am however very excited about surrey central. If they play their cards right they could become a better urban centre than downtown.

If surrey centre wishes to up-shoot Vancouver and impress the world, it seems fair to me that they'd consider building taller more interesting skyscrapers. If they do this, it might start to feel like a much nicer urban core.

[TourOdeon]

Doubt it... Surrey seems like theyre shooting themself in the foot... Their new condos are priced so low ($99k???), it attracts low-income people to buy in the area. The Surrey City Centre would not appeal to higher income earners. At least not anytime soon..

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

So knowing that Downtown Vancouver has height restrictions that they never will seem to back down from, is it possible that Burnaby's Metrotown or Brentwood areas could become a new regional centre?

They are both centralized, both are covered by ample transit, both already have plenty of density.

How about Surrey central?

Surrey is now over 500 000 people and is large enough to develop it's own city centre. In fact it seems like it wants to do it already and many ad campaigns show a very dense transit oriented downtown surrey.

Surrey and Burnaby don't have height limits as far as I know so building of extremely tall or extremely diverse skyscrapers is possible in these two cities.

Personally if I could choose I'd want Burnaby to have the regions new second downtown since it is centralized. I feel that the CoV is already dug a hole for themselves and the downtown is turning into what feels like to me as an urban suburb if that makes sense. I feel it's being too overrun with condo buildings and the commercial buildings being planned or built though higher than in recent history, are still cheapened or wind up being shortened by city regulations.

The table top not only lacks height, it lacks diversity.

Burnaby right now has some extremely nice projects and I'm excited for most of them.

So what are your thoughts?
Do you think we will soon have an official secondary downtown?
Do you think Downtown Vancouver will be replaced by surrey or burnaby's offerings?

If this does happen, how do you think it will occur and will it happen in our lifetime?

What is your definition of downtown? A couple of tall (mostly residential) towers do not make a downtown.

Frankly it's quite a ridiculous notion that Vancouver's downtown will be overtaken solely because of viewcones.

If Vancouver's downtown will be overtaken, it won't be within our lifetimes nor will it be due to viewcones.