Sports in Canadian culture

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just look at how impossible it is to get federal funds for NHL arenas, and that's the national sport and by far the most popular one in the country. Plus NHL arenas are used for other events like concerts, and sports other than NHL hockey.

Got it in one

[esquire]

Originally Posted by elly63

But to build one for a mega profitable American business that would threaten a culturally significant Canadian business, can't see it. Maybe provincial money, but never federal and with all the SIGs coming out of the woodwork would be difficult in Ontario as well.

Would definitely be a tough sell in Ontario, partly because there are so many teams and facilities. In Manitoba, the only big sports facilities are IGF, MTS Centre, Shaw Park in Winnipeg, and (maybe) Brandon's Keystone Centre, so the province really didn't set much of a precedent given that demand for new pro sports facilities in Manitoba is effectively zero now. Winnipeg's facilities are all new and won't be replaced for decades. Brandon's facility still has a lot of life left in it.

Contrast that with Ontario where you have dozens of cities and towns with sports infrastructure needs... if you give $500 million to MLSE for a NFL stadium, how do you say no to funding new OHL rinks all over the place, or to a new CFL stadium for Toronto for that matter?

I'm not sure that the province could pull it off without paying a huge political price for it.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Nathan

They'd probably require their funding to be paid back by the private group before it could be used for that purpose. Anything less could end up being a bit of political suicide in much of the rest of the country (waste of taxpayer money, welfare for rich people, etc).

In any case , with the CFL on a fairly decent assent in popularity again, it could make the whole situation interesting. I know of a fair number of people who have dropped Rogers over the last while... If a permanent plan comes forward that really does treaten the CFL, there could be a bit of a backlash (stronger in some parts of the country than others of course). If everything went as planned and Toronto got an NFL team, it would be 2020 at the very earliest, which is a lot of time for change to occur (there'd be another CFL media contract before then, and this next one already basically tripled from the previous).

Kind of odd timing for the announcement though, no? Grey Cup Weekend? Really?

If other cities/provinces start boycotting Ontario based companies (Toronto based teams have a fan base that goes across the country, not just Toronto) for such petty reasons they Ontario can do significantly more damage with 39% of the national population, I don't think Rogers would be losing any sleep over it. Again, petty threats over petty reasons.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

For that reason, I will not spend another dime on anything owned by Rogers or MLSE if I can help it.

MLSE has pretty much alienated the soccer crowd and most of that was before their Argo ponderings. MLSE/Rogers has some dirty little secrets, like portraying the Raptors as Canada's team when their TV ratings are like 54k (home opener) 75k and 90k recently, and the Argos who are shut out of the mainstream media (aside from TSN) and get the absolute worst home schedule can attract 1 and 1.7 million on TV, very strange.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

If other cities/provinces start boycotting Ontario based companies (Toronto based teams have a fan base that goes across the country, not just Toronto) for such petty reasons they Ontario can do significantly more damage with 39% of the national population, I don't think Rogers would be losing any sleep over it. Again, petty threats over petty reasons.

Funny that you talk about this like it's a done deal... Toronto has been chasing the NFL for over 20 years. You'd think that an uber-wealthy World Class City (TM) would have gotten the job done by now.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

If other cities/provinces start boycotting Ontario based companies (Toronto based teams have a fan base that goes across the country, not just Toronto) for such petty reasons they Ontario can do significantly more damage with 39% of the national population, I don't think Rogers would be losing any sleep over it. Again, petty threats over petty reasons.

Yeah those Raptors and TFC fanbases are huge. Hey, nice too see you again, don't see much of you in the non American, Canadian stadium threads.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by elly63

MLSE had pretty much alienated the soccer crowd and most of that was before their Argo ponderings. MLSE/Rogers has some dirty little secrets, like portraying the Raptors as Canada's team when their TV ratings are like 54k (home opener) 75k and 90k recently, and the Argos who are shut out of the mainstream media (aside from TSN) and get the absolute worst home schedule can attract 1 and 1.7 million on TV, very strange.

It is actually shocking to me how low the Raptors' ratings are... 54k is maybe what i would expect for a WHL game between Lethbridge and Swift Current, or maybe a World Curling Tour preliminary... certainly not for Canada's only NBA team.

[elly63]

The Great Canadian Ratings Report: CFL knocks off Hockey Night In Canada
Chris Zelkovich Eh Game 19 Nov, 2013

It's not exactly historic, but the Canadian Football League did something this weekend that it usually only does for the Grey Cup: One of its division finals outdrew perennial sports ratings champion Hockey Night In Canada.

The West final between Calgary and Saskatchewan averaged 1.9 million viewers Sunday afternoon, 12,000 more than CBC's broadcast of Maple Leafs and Canadiens split games. The East final between Toronto and Hamilton came close to making it a weekend sweep as 1.7 million watched the game -- an all-time record for an East final (at least since automated ratings entered the picture a couple of decades ago.)

It truly was a weekend to remember for the CFL and TSN. The East audience was up 21 per cent over last year while the West was 2 per cent higher than 2012. Audiences peaked at 3.1 million for the East final and 2.7 million for the West. Overall, 7.3 million Canadians watched some or all of the games.

The CFL games pretty much wiped out the football competition. The only NFL game that came close was Sunday night's classic between Denver and Kansas City. It drew 579,000 to TSN, though that number could have doubled had NBC's Canadian audience been measured.

The NFL games played at the same time as the CFL finals didn't crack the 400,000 mark in total audience.

There's a fairly simple explanation for the big audience in the East final. It featured the two teams from the country's largest population area, it was an exciting game and it went down to the final minute. The West game included Saskatchewan, which always insures a pretty good audience since all but about 20 people in that province usually tune in.

That should bode well for Sunday's Grey Cup. With about 10 million great story lines heading into the game, a big audience is all but assured.

While the CFL is celebrating a television success, those running the Toronto Raptors must be wondering if anyone cares about their team. On Friday night, a game against the Chicago Bulls attracted all of 73,000 viewers to TSN. On Sunday, only 90,000 tuned in to Sportsnet Ontario, West and Pacific.

No matter how you look at it, these are tractor pull numbers. While the Raptors went up against the Leafs on Friday and the Argos on Sunday, the fact is that the team has become a television non-entity.

Here are the most-watched sports events of the weekend according to BBM Canada overnight ratings:

1. CFL, West Division final, Sunday, TSN: 1,900,000
2. NHL, Sabres-Leafs/Rangers-Habs, Saturday, CBC: 1,888,000
3. CFL, East Division final, Sunday, TSN: 1,700,000
4. NHL, Oilers at Flames, Saturday, CBC: 947,000
5. NHL, Leafs at Sabres, Friday, Sportsnet Ontario: 695,000
6. NFL, Chiefs at Broncos, Sunday, TSN: 579,000 (NBC audience not calculated)
7. NFL, Patriots at Panthers, Monday, TSN: 579,000
8. NFL, 1 p.m. games, Sunday, CTV: 399,000
9. Figure skating, ISU Grand Prix, Saturday, CBC: 391,000
10. Curling, Grand Slam quarterfinal, Saturday, CBC: 384,000
11. NHL, Sharks at Oilers, Friday, TSN: 373,000
12. NFL, Colts at Titans, Thursday, Sportsnet: 364,000
13. Curling, Grand Slam final, Sunday, CBC: 353,000
14. Curling, Grand Slam semifinal, Saturday, Sportsnet: 288,000
15. Curling, Grand Slam quarterfinal, Saturday, Sportsnet: 277,000
16. NFL, 49ers at Saints, Sunday, Citytv: 271,000
17. UFC, 167 preliminaries, Saturday, Sportsnet 360: 222,000
18. Curling, Grand Slam, Friday, Sportsnet: 204,000
19. NFL, 4 p.m. games, Sunday, Sportsnet: 162,000

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by esquire

Funny that you talk about this like it's a done deal... Toronto has been chasing the NFL for over 20 years. You'd think that an uber-wealthy World Class City (TM) would have gotten the job done by now.

Nowhere did I say it was a done deal Mr.Hicksville (TM), what's changed now is we're seeing clear movement publicly and even the haters must secretly acknowledge in their insecure little heads that it's doable. A year ago, the same people now complaining and getting emotional at the thought that Toronto would be so uppity to have a chance at an NFL franchise were saying it was completely impossible and not even worthy of contemplation...

[Nathan]

^ It's funny how the Raptors are never really dragged through the media, but if the CFL ever had ratings that low, we would never hear the end of it. Yet, it's the CFL that isn't "big league" in Canada.

[elly63]

And so our "American" friends here can have a comparison, an average of 703,000 Canadians watched each CFL regular season game on TSN, and 758,000 watched on TSN and RDS combined – the second highest ratings in the history of the CFL.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Nathan

^ It's funny how the Raptors are never really dragged through the media, but if the CFL ever had ratings that low, we would never hear the end of it. Yet, it's the CFL that isn't "big league" in Canada.

That's what makes all of this so fascinating. Dirty, dirty, dirty. Or Greasy as a great Canadian once said.

It's all the little games that these big corps play. Contrary to popular belief, it's only been the last few years that the Super Bore has outrated the GC. And the GC has not been carried on a national network like the Super Bowl has. It would be very interesting to see what the numbers would be if the GC was on CTV or CBC. TSN doesn't have as full coverage as do the mainstream nets, and with an ever growing number of people pulling the cord (like me) it will be less.

[Acajack]

I watched the two big Canadian football cups on the weekend (Vanier and Grey) and this got me thinking TV ratings.

The Grey Cup got about 300,000 viewers in Quebec last year (no Alouettes).

The Vanier Cup averages about 500,000 viewers in Quebec when Laval are playing.

Therefore, it is highly likely that the Vanier Cup outdrew the Grey Cup for viewers this year in Quebec - especially since the Vanier Cup was a closer game, especially in the second half when Calgary pulled ahead at one point.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by elly63

Yeah those Raptors and TFC fanbases are huge. Hey, nice too see you again, don't see much of you in the non American, Canadian stadium threads.

You won't see much of me in any North American football-related threads (CFL or NFL), I'm more of an infrastructure investment fanboy. I want to see a Halifax CFL stadium and franchise and an Olympic stadium and related urban/infrastructure development in Toronto along with any other major sports franchises such as an NFL team. I want to see this country grow in all areas and especially my home, Toronto. I only show my face here when I see unfair statements that ignite my indignation. Unfair and hypocritical Toronto-bashing or any racist comments on these forums are my pet peeves and I'm all over that when I see it!

An NFL team in Toronto will not kill the CFL, the Argos will still survive, if little Australian cities can sustain both Australian rules football teams and rugby teams (they're considered competitor leagues in Australia with different regions having stronger support for various leagues) then a large city like Toronto can certainly sustain it. The argos have been around for over a century, they'll be around longer than the rest regardless of their fan support. The Golden horseshoe will grow in population with strength for decades to come, everyone needs choices and options and there's room enough for all of them.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by elly63

The Great Canadian Ratings Report: CFL knocks off Hockey Night In Canada
Chris Zelkovich Eh Game 19 Nov, 2013

It's not exactly historic, but the Canadian Football League did something this weekend that it usually only does for the Grey Cup: One of its division finals outdrew perennial sports ratings champion Hockey Night In Canada.

The West final between Calgary and Saskatchewan averaged 1.9 million viewers Sunday afternoon, 12,000 more than CBC's broadcast of Maple Leafs and Canadiens split games. The East final between Toronto and Hamilton came close to making it a weekend sweep as 1.7 million watched the game -- an all-time record for an East final (at least since automated ratings entered the picture a couple of decades ago.)

It truly was a weekend to remember for the CFL and TSN. The East audience was up 21 per cent over last year while the West was 2 per cent higher than 2012. Audiences peaked at 3.1 million for the East final and 2.7 million for the West. Overall, 7.3 million Canadians watched some or all of the games.

The CFL games pretty much wiped out the football competition. The only NFL game that came close was Sunday night's classic between Denver and Kansas City. It drew 579,000 to TSN, though that number could have doubled had NBC's Canadian audience been measured.

The NFL games played at the same time as the CFL finals didn't crack the 400,000 mark in total audience.

There's a fairly simple explanation for the big audience in the East final. It featured the two teams from the country's largest population area, it was an exciting game and it went down to the final minute. The West game included Saskatchewan, which always insures a pretty good audience since all but about 20 people in that province usually tune in.

That should bode well for Sunday's Grey Cup. With about 10 million great story lines heading into the game, a big audience is all but assured.

While the CFL is celebrating a television success, those running the Toronto Raptors must be wondering if anyone cares about their team. On Friday night, a game against the Chicago Bulls attracted all of 73,000 viewers to TSN. On Sunday, only 90,000 tuned in to Sportsnet Ontario, West and Pacific.

No matter how you look at it, these are tractor pull numbers. While the Raptors went up against the Leafs on Friday and the Argos on Sunday, the fact is that the team has become a television non-entity.

Who gives a damn? The bottom line is that all Toronto-based teams are sustainable and not going anywhere, none have ever left unlike many other Canadian franchises over the years. We certainly can sustain an NFL team while keeping what we've got.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

An NFL team in Toronto will not kill the CFL, the Argos will still survive, The argos have been around for over a century, they'll be around longer than the rest regardless of their fan support. The Golden horseshoe will grow in population with strength for decades to come, everyone needs choices and options and there's room enough for all of them.

Agree with most of the above but I have a problem with some of the dirty little tricks being pulled by the corporate media giants (and I'm not a conspiracy guy...Oswald did it)

I'm not sure if the Golden Horseshoe will grow as you think. The census has the population trending westward and traditionally the people who went to Southern Ontario are now heading west. It will be interesting to see the inevitable clash of cultures that could take place in the conservative west. We're already seeing it in Quebec.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Who gives a damn? The bottom line is that all Toronto-based teams are sustainable and not going anywhere, none have ever left unlike many other Canadian franchises over the years. We certainly can sustain an NFL team while keeping what we've got.

I can't see Toronto sustaining over 60k crowds for NFL after the honeymoon is over (similar to the Jays) Aside from the Leafs, is Toronto really a good sports town? Sometimes, I wonder if there are only 20k soccer, 20k basketball and 20k Argo fans in the city.

I don't buy the whole Bills are not our team argument. If there were NFL fans there they would show up, like they do in London.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Who gives a damn? The bottom line is that all Toronto-based teams are sustainable and not going anywhere, none have ever left unlike many other Canadian franchises over the years. We certainly can sustain an NFL team while keeping what we've got.

Agreed. There's nothing that says Toronto can't support an NFL team (whether they get one or not) while still having a CFL team. Fans of either game will be happy, fans of both will be ecstatic.

I hope it happens at some point. I know a lot of people who go down to Buffalo and Detroit to watch games (but are cheering the other team - don't know many Bills or Lions fans... especially Bills) - who would rather just drive to Toronto to watch a game even though the tickets will be more expensive.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by elly63

I don't buy the whole Bills are not our team argument. If there were NFL fans there they would show up, like they do in London.

Why pay a hugely inflated price to watch an NFL game when you can go to Buffalo or Detroit and save big bucks? 20,000 Canadians put up with the pain of going to Ralph Wilson stadium every game. Not hard to imagine 60,000 people attending when they have their own team right in their own backyard.

The NFL is different than MLB and the NBA in that while it's also the biggest league of it's sport, it only has 8 home games to sell tickets to... and almost always on Sunday. Very easy to fit something like that in your schedule and doesn't take a lot of effort to support. Hockey, basketball and baseball require a lot more from fans.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Nowhere did I say it was a done deal Mr.Hicksville (TM), what's changed now is we're seeing clear movement publicly and even the haters must secretly acknowledge in their insecure little heads that it's doable.

Point of order here, this Hicksville actually managed to acquire the major league team that we wanted

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

You won't see much of me in any North American football-related threads (CFL or NFL), I'm more of an infrastructure investment fanboy. I want to see a Halifax CFL stadium and franchise and an Olympic stadium and related urban/infrastructure development in Toronto along with any other major sports franchises such as an NFL team. I want to see this country grow in all areas and especially my home, Toronto. I only show my face here when I see unfair statements that ignite my indignation. Unfair and hypocritical Toronto-bashing or any racist comments on these forums are my pet peeves and I'm all over that when I see it!

An NFL team in Toronto will not kill the CFL, the Argos will still survive, if little Australian cities can sustain both Australian rules football teams and rugby teams (they're considered competitor leagues in Australia with different regions having stronger support for various leagues) then a large city like Toronto can certainly sustain it. The argos have been around for over a century, they'll be around longer than the rest regardless of their fan support. The Golden horseshoe will grow in population with strength for decades to come, everyone needs choices and options and there's room enough for all of them.

I have no problem with the NFL in Toronto, I just resent the efforts of the proponents (Rogers and MLSE) to crush the CFL/Argonauts when the reality is that the CFL would not have any sort of impact on the chances of a Toronto NFL team. I would think that when it comes to sports teams, more is more... why give up a team when you don't actually have to?

Originally Posted by elly63

I can't see Toronto sustaining over 60k crowds for NFL after the honeymoon is over (similar to the Jays) Aside from the Leafs, is Toronto really a good sports town? Sometimes, I wonder if there are only 20k soccer, 20k basketball and 20k Argo fans in the city.

You're probably right, and that may have to do with Toronto's sheer size. I think that to some extent, pro sports mania is more of a mid-sized city phenomenon... To wit, I have been able to buy Lakers and Clippers home playoff tickets through Ticketmaster with no effort, and Nets/Knicks tickets are also easy enough to come by. Yet you have to sacrifice your firstborn to get Broncos tickets or even to see a Winnipeg Jets game.

I don't think people in huge cities like New York or LA are that obsessed about attending sports events... it's a far smaller part of their civic identity than it is in a place like Edmonton or Kansas City.