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  #41  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2017, 7:24 PM
khabibulin khabibulin is online now
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
The various policies run counter to each other - it's stated they want more people to experience the parks, but they also do not want to put in any new infrastructure to handle these extra guests. This is nonsensical, as was the braindead decision to make the pass free this year.

Many places in the park are mess because of these policies, Lake Louise and Moraine Lake being good examples. In the summer, the parking lots are full and the roads clogged with parked cars. Their solution to this? The typical Canadian non-solution, ban parking on the roads. There is a refusal to accept that if you want more people in the park, you are going to have to put them somewhere and transport them, which would involve park and rides away from the main attractions with buses to them.

There's a little progress being made to do this in Banff, but everyone's a NIMBY/BANANA so nothing will get done.
As per your example, this is mainly a problem at Canada's flagship national Park, Banff. To a lesser degree there are crowding problems at Bruce Peninsula NP and Waterton NP. Efforts are being made to encourage visitation during the shoulder seasons or other less busy periods, or to other national parks that do not have crowding issues.

Parking on the road to Lake Louise and Moraine Lake is not safe as access to and from these areas would be hampered in the event of an emergency.

Bus Service from Calgary to Banff, and within Banff National Park was enhanced this summer.

Free entry to national parks was part of the Liberal election platform in 2015. So you know where the blame lies on that one.
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  #42  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2017, 9:13 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Why not have everyone stay in Calgary/Canmore, but have a train running into Baniff? That is the mainline CP so, it should be fast enough.
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  #43  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2017, 10:39 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by khabibulin View Post
As per your example, this is mainly a problem at Canada's flagship national Park, Banff. To a lesser degree there are crowding problems at Bruce Peninsula NP and Waterton NP. Efforts are being made to encourage visitation during the shoulder seasons or other less busy periods, or to other national parks that do not have crowding issues.

Parking on the road to Lake Louise and Moraine Lake is not safe as access to and from these areas would be hampered in the event of an emergency.

Bus Service from Calgary to Banff, and within Banff National Park was enhanced this summer.

Free entry to national parks was part of the Liberal election platform in 2015. So you know where the blame lies on that one.
Progress is far too slow (or, mostly, not coming at all) on the solutions though. Similarly, Parks are banning parking on the Sunshine road for no good reason whatsoever, without providing any new parking elsewhere and blocking any attempts by Sunshine Village to provide any.

Parks are going to need to bend on some issues rather than being completely inflexible, as the demand for these things is only going to increase.
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  #44  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2017, 11:39 PM
khabibulin khabibulin is online now
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Progress is far too slow (or, mostly, not coming at all) on the solutions though. Similarly, Parks are banning parking on the Sunshine road for no good reason whatsoever, without providing any new parking elsewhere and blocking any attempts by Sunshine Village to provide any.

Parks are going to need to bend on some issues rather than being completely inflexible, as the demand for these things is only going to increase.
Areas of the Sunshine Road are on an avalanche path! Sounds like a good reason to not allow parking to me. And Parks has said Sunshine can build a multi-level parking structure on their existing parking lot. Why has Sunshine not done this?

And once again, you are talking about Banff only. Any concerns about any other parks?
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  #45  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 12:36 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Areas of the Sunshine Road are on an avalanche path! Sounds like a good reason to not allow parking to me. And Parks has said Sunshine can build a multi-level parking structure on their existing parking lot. Why has Sunshine not done this?

And once again, you are talking about Banff only. Any concerns about any other parks?
I imagine other parks have similar concerns, but Banff is the one I'm familiar with, and is also the one which would be relevant to an Olympics bid.

If there is any risk of avalanche (first I've heard of it), just ban it on those slidepaths, or only during times of higher avalanche danger. No need to cut off the entire road.

According to Sunshine Village, adding a parkade would mean incurring high costs which wouldn't be able to be recouped because (here we go again) Parks Canada won't allow any more development of the resort, so ticket prices would have to increase from their already extortionate level. Seems fair enough to me, especially when they have presented multiple options to expand parking capacity cheaply, with no real effect on the environment since all of the options are bounded by or adjacent to roadways.
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  #46  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 2:36 AM
khabibulin khabibulin is online now
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I imagine other parks have similar concerns, but Banff is the one I'm familiar with, and is also the one which would be relevant to an Olympics bid.

If there is any risk of avalanche (first I've heard of it), just ban it on those slidepaths, or only during times of higher avalanche danger. No need to cut off the entire road.

According to Sunshine Village, adding a parkade would mean incurring high costs which wouldn't be able to be recouped because (here we go again) Parks Canada won't allow any more development of the resort, so ticket prices would have to increase from their already extortionate level. Seems fair enough to me, especially when they have presented multiple options to expand parking capacity cheaply, with no real effect on the environment since all of the options are bounded by or adjacent to roadways.
If you've never heard of it, I recommend you do some research before spouting more "fake news". And Parks Canada has already been doing just what you recommend, Only banning parking during most dangerous times and in the most dangerous places. Instead of paying for lawyers (Sunshine is very litigious but never seems to win against the crown), perhaps Sunshine should be paying for a parking structure! Oh well, their lease must be expiring soon.

Judge upholds Sunshine parking ban

Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 06:00 am
By: Cathy Ellis

Parks Canada’s enforcement of a ban on parking in potentially dangerous avalanche terrain along the access road to Sunshine Village ski resort has been upheld by the courts.
A federal court decision against granting an injunction comes at the same time Sunshine had a busy Christmas season, with skiers turned away at the base of the access road on at least one day as vehicles back up onto the Trans-Canada Highway.

Sunshine claims the parking ban on the upper stretch of the seven-kilometre access road will harm its business reputation, but Parks argues it’s a matter of public safety because of the potential avalanche hazard.
The ski resort was seeking a stay on the enforcement of the ban while they seek a judicial review on Parks Canada’s decision to ban parking on the upper section of the road.
“I agree with (Parks Canada) that the balance of convenience involving questions of public safety and the public interest mitigate against the issuance of any injunction,” wrote federal judge Elizabeth Heneghan in a Dec. 21 decision.
Sunshine’s parking lot can accommodate about 1,700 cars and, once full, the upper three kilometres of the access road have historically been used to park another 400 or so cars during peak periods such as Christmas holidays.
But last March, Parks Canada put a stop to parking along the upper three km stretch after a massive Class 4 avalanche came crashing down the Bourgeau 7 slide path on March 6, sweeping across the road.
In early December, however, Parks Canada altered its original restriction and increased the amount of road currently available to parking by approximately one km.

As it stands now, no parking is permitted between the gate at the Sunshine Village parking lot and the east side of the Bourgeau 4 avalanche path on the access road.
It will, however, be allowed between the east side of Bourgeau 4 and east side of Bourgeau 1 during periods of forecast minimal avalanche hazard only. Parking is allowed on the lower section below Bouregeau 1 to the cattle guard.
Sunshine provides a shuttle bus to transport skiers up and down the road.
Marc Ledwidge, Parks Canada’s visitor safety manager, said the Class 4 avalanche highlighted the uncertainty of forecasting large avalanche paths and was a “huge wakeup call for all us.
“It is unreasonable for people to park there and have pedestrians standing there. The only reason we’re doing this is we’re very concerned about the safety of people while accessing the ski area,” he said.
“This incident last year shows the unpredictable nature of avalanches and the potential catastrophic consequence of a large avalanche on that road, and we’re not prepared to accept that risk for the public.”
Officials with Sunshine Village say they are continuing with the judicial review application of Parks Canada’s parking restrictions.
Crosbie Cotton, director for the National Parks Ski Areas Association, said an expert group they commissioned – Dynamic Avalanche Consulting Ltd. – determined parking restrictions weren’t required.
“This appears to be unreasonable, with visitors and the community paying the ultimate price,” he said. “Visitors who say they won’t come back have a tremendous impact on the town of Banff, not just the resort.”
Cotton said the parking protocol in place since 2006 – which allowed for parking in certain areas in the top three kms depending on the snow conditions – worked.
He argued the parking restrictions could have been lifted over the Christmas period.
“It hasn’t snowed for six days, Parks Canada has undertaken all the necessary avalanche precautions, many of the signs could have been covered up, especially within the leasehold, because there was no danger,” he said.
“Parks Canada can’t continue to promote tremendous advances in the quality of visitor experience when you have something like this. Sunshine wants a long-term solution to parking, but the resort needs a willing partner.”
Ledwidge said park wardens have been enforcing the parking restrictions and Sunshine Village staff have been very co-operative, doing an amazing job in dealing with people parking on the safe stretch of the road.
“We’re not ignoring the challenges that Sunshine has. The goal is to work towards a real long-term solution and parking on the road is not a long-term solution,” he said.
“Safety is a priority, but for next winter, we hope we definitely have something that’s in place that works for Sunshine and also works for their customers.”
In making the determination, Judge Heneghan said Sunshine failed to provide evidence the parking restrictions would cause the ski resort “irreparable harm.”
Sunshine had said prohibiting overflow parking on the upper access road would damage their reputation as an attractive and easily accessible regional destination and it is highly likely will negatively impact season pass and ticket sales.
“This statement is not supported by any evidence, for example, about anticipated loss of customers and loss of income,” said Judge Heneghan. “Should such loss occur, in my opinion, it is financial in nature and not irreparable.”
National park wardens have been out over the holiday period enforcing the parking ban.
On Sunday (Dec. 30), traffic on the access road was backed up all the way to the Trans-Canada Highway, forcing skiers to be turned away until parking opened up.
Eric Jensen, acting supervisor of Banff’s warden office, said wardens are working towards a common goal of keeping people safe and getting them skiing as quickly as possible.
“We appreciate the visitation and we are excited and eager that so many people come up and visit the parks, but safety of our visitors is our top priority,” he said.
“Yesterday (Sunday) was our biggest lineup. With that situation, we had to contend with traffic slowing down and backing up on the highway. The last thing we want to have is traffic back-up causing an accident
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  #47  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 4:20 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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FFS, I'm not saying anything is fake news, but avalanches happen in defined slidepaths and don't affect entire roadways.

I saw that article. You might notice it's from 2013 and the requests stated are reasonable. The latest ban is on the entire road and has no logical basis. If they were concerned about safety rather than just pissing people off, they'd allow a different surface parking lot to be built, which I'm sure SSV would be happy to do. Along with the high cost, the current parking lot is in a floodplain making building a parkade there risky.

I've noticed a familiar trend of people defending Park's arbitrary nonsensical decisions. For all the good they do, they should not be above criticism, and their complete opposition to 100% of development should be questioned, especially when their mandate is to make the parks more accessible to the population.

I normally hate when private companies sue governments, but I hope in this instance SSV sues Parks Canada for the revenue loss they will endure for this pointless decision.
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  #48  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 4:39 AM
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Seeing as you two (K and M) have gone off on a tangent - just curious, do either of you ski? And specifically do you ski at Sunshine?

On a typical Saturday/Sunday, the main parking lot is full by 10. People the start parking along the right side of the road (when driving to the hill) and take the shuttle bus to the main bldg. By about 1, all 13 pick up stations will be full (including the mini lot around pick up station 11). Station 13 is near the Brewster creek parking lot - so pretty much the entire length of the road has parking on one side. The only exceptions are the 4 avalanche slide areas which are non-parking/stopping zones. And BTW avalanches cannot happen just anywhere - topography plays a big role and it is quite easy to identify the avie zones.

FTR, while I now live in Vancouver, I still skied Sunshine 5 times last year and all those visits had people parking pretty much to the Brewster lot.
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  #49  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 4:43 AM
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As for holding the Olympics at Louise, well there would be many logistics involved with it. Using the train to get people from Canmore to Louise has a major hurdle - CP. As much as CP may cherish its Canadian heritage (ha ha) there is NO WAY that CP would allow Olympic visitor trains to override it's schedule.

Really, the only viable option is to run shuttle buses on in an increased basis.

Anyway, too many things are up in the air regarding the Olympics and other than Calgary possibly hosting them in 2026 (< 50/50 chance) I don't see the Olympics coming back to Canada in the next 30 years.
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  #50  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 1:12 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by shreddog View Post
Seeing as you two (K and M) have gone off on a tangent - just curious, do either of you ski? And specifically do you ski at Sunshine?

On a typical Saturday/Sunday, the main parking lot is full by 10. People the start parking along the right side of the road (when driving to the hill) and take the shuttle bus to the main bldg. By about 1, all 13 pick up stations will be full (including the mini lot around pick up station 11). Station 13 is near the Brewster creek parking lot - so pretty much the entire length of the road has parking on one side. The only exceptions are the 4 avalanche slide areas which are non-parking/stopping zones. And BTW avalanches cannot happen just anywhere - topography plays a big role and it is quite easy to identify the avie zones.

FTR, while I now live in Vancouver, I still skied Sunshine 5 times last year and all those visits had people parking pretty much to the Brewster lot.
Yes I do. More backcountry these days but I still visit Sunshine quite a lot. I don't normally go to great lengths defending private interests but they are in the right on this one. In fairness, parking on the road is a non optimal solution - so let SSV build the parking lots they want to!

This all points out how hard it will be to have an Olympics in BNP - Parks Canada are impossible to deal with.
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  #51  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 1:15 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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As for holding the Olympics at Louise, well there would be many logistics involved with it. Using the train to get people from Canmore to Louise has a major hurdle - CP. As much as CP may cherish its Canadian heritage (ha ha) there is NO WAY that CP would allow Olympic visitor trains to override it's schedule.

Really, the only viable option is to run shuttle buses on in an increased basis.

Anyway, too many things are up in the air regarding the Olympics and other than Calgary possibly hosting them in 2026 (< 50/50 chance) I don't see the Olympics coming back to Canada in the next 30 years.
Yeah, if anybody is more immovable and impossible to deal with than Parks Canada, it's the CPR.
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  #52  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 8:31 PM
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As for holding the Olympics at Louise, well there would be many logistics involved with it. Using the train to get people from Canmore to Louise has a major hurdle - CP. As much as CP may cherish its Canadian heritage (ha ha) there is NO WAY that CP would allow Olympic visitor trains to override it's schedule.

Really, the only viable option is to run shuttle buses on in an increased basis.

Anyway, too many things are up in the air regarding the Olympics and other than Calgary possibly hosting them in 2026 (< 50/50 chance) I don't see the Olympics coming back to Canada in the next 30 years.
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Yeah, if anybody is more immovable and impossible to deal with than Parks Canada, it's the CPR.
I bet if enough money were shaken at CP, they would bend. Or better still, if regulations were put in place, they would bend. That is part of the problem in Canada, our rail infrastructure has been decimated at the cost of "doing business". Maybe it is time to do as the Europe countries do and nationalize all the lines.
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  #53  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 9:37 PM
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There was a proposal to hold the 1988 Olympic Alpine events at Lake Louise. A study was done and the decision made by the Government of the day was....no. Decision was was mainly based on environmental concerns and the purpose of national parks.

Here is the Parks Canada Mandate and Charter:

Mandate
On behalf of the people of Canada, we protect and present nationally significant examples of Canada's natural and cultural heritage, and foster public understanding, appreciation and enjoyment in ways that ensure the ecological and commemorative integrity of these places for present and future generations.


CHARTER

We are guardians
...of the national parks, the national historic sites and the national marine conservation areas of Canada.

We are guides
...to visitors from around the world, opening doors to places of discovery and learning, reflection and recreation.

We are partners
...building on the rich traditions of our Aboriginal people, the strength of our diverse cultures and our commitments to the international community.

We are storytellers
...recounting the history of our land and our people - the stories of Canada.
Our Commitments

To protect,
...as a first priority, the natural and cultural heritage of our special places and ensure that they remain healthy and whole.

To present
...the beauty and significance of our natural world and to chronicle the human determination and ingenuity which have shaped our nation

To celebrate
...the legacy of visionary Canadians whose passion and knowledge have inspired the character and values of our country.

To serve
...Canadians, working together to achieve excellence guided by values of competence, respect and fairness.
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  #54  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 10:08 PM
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Thinking that we should have it spread between 2 countries is a little far fetched. Then we would ahve to ensure all athletes could go to 2 countries, not one.
The IOC, however, has new rules that will allow it. During the Montreal Olympics, all the sailing/yachting competitions were in Kingston on Lake Ontario because the Montreal area did not possess a suitable venue. According to the IOC statutes, the venues in all sport disciplines must be held either in, or as close as possible to the chosen city. It's not inconceivable for Lake Placid to hold the Alpine Skiing events (since it is the most difficult venue requirement to fulfill and the closest site) in the farfetched possibility that Montreal or Ottawa decide to be hosts.
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  #55  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 10:13 PM
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According to the IOC statutes, the venues in all sport disciplines must be held either in, or as close as possible to the chosen city. It's not inconceivable for Lake Placid to hold the Alpine Skiing events (since it is the most difficult venue requirement to fulfill and the closest site) in the farfetched possibility that Montreal or Ottawa decide to be hosts.
As stated earlier in the thread, Beijing 2008 got away with having an Equestrian venue which was 2,000km away in Hong Kong. An equivalent distance in Canada would be Quebec City hosting games with cross-country skiing taking place in Winnipeg.
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  #56  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2017, 10:29 PM
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Sunshine not being allowed to build more surface parking is BS.

They can't justify charging more for tickets without expanding and people will stop visiting Sunshine if that means they get turned around unless they arrive before 9 am (that will probably change to 8 and maybe even 7.30 once the parking ban is in effect).

This is only going to bring in less money into the park. It's such typical Canadian BS problem to have.
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  #57  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2017, 12:45 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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As it happens, the Sunshine Road parking ban has been reversed, for now, by the federal court. At least there's adults in the room somewhere.

http://www.skibanff.com/sunshine-vil...urts-decision/
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  #58  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2018, 5:47 AM
khabibulin khabibulin is online now
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As I have said before, no way any Olympic events will be held in a national park.
And so it begins. Looks like the IOC already sees the writing on the wall.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ticle37707474/


Representatives from the International Olympic Committee are worried about Calgary’s plan to host alpine speed events at Lake Louise Ski Resort.
MIKE BLAKE/REUTERS
Carrie Tait

CALGARY
Published 1 day ago
Updated 1 day ago
Calgary is considering major changes to its Olympic blueprint for a series of skiing events as part of its potential bid for the 2026 Winter Games after the international governing body raised concerns about one of the city's proposed sporting venues.
Representatives from the International Olympic Committee are worried about Calgary's plan to host alpine speed events at Lake Louise Ski Resort, which is in Banff National Park, according to the city's point person on the project.
IOC officials visited Alberta last week to review plans for proposed venues and to try to find ways to reduce costs. The IOC is doing the same with other potential host cities.olympic-plan-after-ioc-raises-concern-about-ski-venue.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2018, 7:39 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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And so it begins. Looks like the IOC already sees the writing on the wall.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ticle37707474/


Representatives from the International Olympic Committee are worried about Calgary’s plan to host alpine speed events at Lake Louise Ski Resort.
MIKE BLAKE/REUTERS
Carrie Tait

CALGARY
Published 1 day ago
Updated 1 day ago
Calgary is considering major changes to its Olympic blueprint for a series of skiing events as part of its potential bid for the 2026 Winter Games after the international governing body raised concerns about one of the city's proposed sporting venues.
Representatives from the International Olympic Committee are worried about Calgary's plan to host alpine speed events at Lake Louise Ski Resort, which is in Banff National Park, according to the city's point person on the project.
IOC officials visited Alberta last week to review plans for proposed venues and to try to find ways to reduce costs. The IOC is doing the same with other potential host cities.olympic-plan-after-ioc-raises-concern-about-ski-venue.
They still haven't put the bid in, so, eventually, the city may see it as not worth it, or they may see it as a good thing.
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