Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[elly63]

Group behind Halifax CFL expansion bid picks stadium site
Dave Naylor TSN October 26 2018

Maritime Football Ltd., the group hoping to establish a Canadian Football League expansion franchise in Halifax, hopes to build a 24,000-seat multi-use stadium at Shannon Park, a site located in the north end area of Dartmouth on the eastern shore of Halifax Harbour.

The stadium, which would cost $170 million to $190 million and wouldn’t be ready before 2021, would be constructed and maintained with both the provincial and municipal government as funding partners.

That information is contained in a document titled “CFL Stadium Proposal Update and Staff Direction” that was posted on the Halifax Regional Municipality’s website Friday morning in advance of the Oct. 30 regional council meeting where a series of recommendations will be presented to council by staff.

Those recommendations include completing a thorough business case analysis on the proposal for a stadium and stadium district development, engaging with the province for permission to contribute financially to a stadium through tax incremental financing or other means, engaging with the prospective owners and the province on potential sources of revenue to finance the stadium, and asking for a final recommendation to proceed or not proceed as a funding partner in a new stadium.
If approved by council next Tuesday, it’s expected to take at least three months for a final report and recommendation to be completed.

Shannon Park, one of six sites that were under consideration, is a 95-acre site that was used by the Department of Defence for housing from the early 1950s until 2003. Eighty-five acres of the site are owned by Canada Lands Company (CLC). The prospective team owners are in negotiations with the CLC to purchase a 20-acre segment that would house the stadium, parking and some commercial development.

Shannon Park was previously considered as a stadium site as part of a bid for the 2014 Commonwealth Games and the 2015 Women’s Soccer World Cup, neither of which came to fruition.

Maritime Football Ltd., founded by businessmen Anthony LeBlanc, Bruce Bowser and Gary Drummond, presented their vision to the CFL in the fall of 2017 and are in the final stages of negotiating with the league for a conditional expansion franchise.

The more challenging part of the equation has always been construction of a stadium.

The report states that, “It is expected that the [municipality’s] contribution to a stadium would include being a funding partner on the capital cost to construct the stadium as well as possibly being a contributor to ongoing capital repairs and maintenance.”

Some of that funding could come from tax increment funding, where any incremental tax revenues within the stadium district could be directed for development or capital financing.

The report says debt financing on the stadium is expected to be $9 million to $10 million annually.

The report also states stadium financing requires the province to become a funding partner, recognizing that the Nova Scotia Premier Stephen McNeil has stated that this would require new sources of revenue, and can’t be drawn from existing ones. It mentions specifically the possibility of an increase to the hotel marketing levy tax or the development of a car rental tax.
If council votes to move forward with the business case study and negotiations with the province, Maritime Football Ltd. is expected to start a season-ticket campaign in November

[esquire]

Originally Posted by king10

Sounds like Tim Hortons Field 2.0. Not necessarily a bad thing for Halifax.

Something like THF would be perfectly suited to Halifax.

[Calgarian]

Nice, C'mon Halifax, we want 10 teams!

[someone123]

This is all as expected except for Shannon Park as the preferred site.

Previously there was talk of locating the stadium in a big box development by a highway. If that happens it will be a big mistake.

Shannon Park has much better transportation connections and will be a nicer spot to visit. It is a waterfront site and there will be a larger mixed use development nearby in the future. Eventually there could be a new ferry terminal and the ferries could add extra service during stadium events. This would alleviate a lot of pressure on the roads and make for a much better visitor experience.

[J.OT13]

If it's not somewhere in Downtown Halifax, Shannon Park does seem like the best alternative. Looking forward to more news.

Meantime in Ottawa, the Rendez-Vous LeBreton group (RVL) submitted a planning application to the City a month ago. Since negotiations between RVL and the NCC are not yet finalized, nothing has been made public, but we should be getting some news at the NCC's November board meeting.

https://ottawasun.com/news/local-new...f-e4d993abef4f

[someone123]

Here is the Shannon Park site. Dartmouth is on the left, Halifax on the right, downtown Halifax in the upper right:



Here's an old drawing of a 25,000 seat stadium for the Commonwealth Games bid. This would have gone near the water on the right side of the Shannon Park footprint as seen in the previous image. I assume they are still planning to build on this part of the site:


Source

[JakeLRS]

One of THF proposed sites were suppose to be on the waterfront. Stadium would have looked awesome with the view of the waterfront at one end zone. On top of that, the neighborhood is much better maintained (it’s more high class) and would be near the new housing district. But you know... Hamilton.

Happy Halifax made a much better decision.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JakeLRS

On top of that, the neighborhood is much better maintained (it’s more high class) and would be near the new housing district. But you know... Hamilton.

North End Dartmouth is perhaps the poorest and highest crime part of the inner city area of metro Halifax (on both sides the south ends are wealthier than the north ends, and Dartmouth is the poorer side of the harbour), but Shannon Park is somewhat separated from nearby neighbourhoods and in any case I expect that this part of town will improve a lot over the next 10-20 years.

From an urban development perspective it's a good spot for a stadium.

There were a couple of hypothetical spots on the Halifax side where a stadium could be built without significant demolition but these sites would have been much more difficult for the group to secure. Shannon Park is a 95 acre essentially empty site that is already being redeveloped, and the stadium will take only 15 acres of that.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by someone123

Source

Is that a ferry dock on the far right? It would be great to have direct ferry service between a redeveloped Shannon Park and downtown Halifax. Hopefully it's something they include in the latest plans.

[Nouvellecosse]

That might be the best spot for a stadium, but it's probably also the best spot for a lot of things considering it's one of the largest contiguous pieces of land in the central metro area, is highly visible, and is close to major transportation corridors. The relevant question is, "Is that the best potential use for the land?" and as an answer, a football stadium is not necessarily the leading or obvious option.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

That might be the best spot for a stadium, but it's probably also the best spot for a lot of things considering it's one of the largest contiguous pieces of land in the central metro area, is highly visible, and is close to major transportation corridors. The relevant question is, "Is that the best potential use for the land?" and as an answer, a football stadium is not necessarily the leading or obvious option.

What else would you propose though? Most other stuff has a smaller footprint and could easily be built on the peninsula. Also, the stadium is only using a fraction of the Shannon Park land.

I feel like Halifax is actually full of underused sites like Shannon Park, and the limiting factor is the planning and development pipeline, not the land itself. Right now on peninsular Halifax there are 4 or 5 mini Shannon Parks (Bloomfield, St. Pat's and St. Pat's Alexandra, QEH, the old RCMP site, maybe part of Windsor Park...? Soon Cogswell too). Every time these sites come up people talk about what an amazing opportunity they are and usually 10 years later they are still empty. Here we have a case where a group wants to put one of these sites to good use.

This is a case of "don't let perfect be the enemy of the good".

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Given what's happening with the Argos, is it most likely we'll see them move to Halifax when the time comes?

It seems Toronto and the CFL need to take a break and figure things out. Worked for the Als/Concordes. Who knows? Lightning could strike twice...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

Given what's happening with the Argos, is it most likely we'll see them move to Halifax when the time comes?

It seems Toronto and the CFL need to take a break and figure things out. Worked for the Als/Concordes. Who knows? Lightning could strike twice...

Seeing that MLSE just bought the team, it seems highly unlikely that they'd already be selling.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

What else would you propose though? Most other stuff has a smaller footprint and could easily be built on the peninsula. Also, the stadium is only using a fraction of the Shannon Park land.

I feel like Halifax is actually full of underused sites like Shannon Park, and the limiting factor is the planning and development pipeline, not the land itself. Right now on peninsular Halifax there are 4 or 5 mini Shannon Parks (Bloomfield, St. Pat's and St. Pat's Alexandra, QEH, the old RCMP site, maybe part of Windsor Park...? Soon Cogswell too). Every time these sites come up people talk about what an amazing opportunity they are and usually 10 years later they are still empty. Here we have a case where a group wants to put one of these sites to good use.

This is a case of "don't let perfect be the enemy of the good".

It has nothing to do with what I would propose but rather if it's a good use of public investment. The problem with the platitude you quote is that it's inherently based on the presupposition that the proposal is actually "good". If it's a private developer paying market rates for land and not expecting tax breaks or other incentives then such questions aren't terribly relevant. But the article you posted suggests that isn't the case. When the question arises of how to best spend and manage public resources and not everyone (including me) is even convinced that such a stadium is actually a net benefit to the HRM let alone large swaths of central land, we need to consider all possibilities that exist which could include anything from residential development potentially providing more affordable housing in a central area, to various commercial or institutional uses or other options I'm not even aware of.

To be clear, I'm not "against" the stadium, but I have absolutely not been sold on it supposed benefits at this point either so i think it needs much closer examination before assuming it to be in the "good" column.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

Given what's happening with the Argos, is it most likely we'll see them move to Halifax when the time comes?

No.

From a corporate and sponsorship standpoint the CFL (and any league in Canada) needs Toronto for the sake of general appearances. Voluntarily giving up on the country's biggest market would not be a good sign to potential investors and would be admitting defeat in that market. If a league can't make a go of it in the biggest market in Canada how likely is a startup going to fare in a city a fraction of the size?

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

It has nothing to do with what I would propose but rather if it's a good use of public investment. The problem with the platitude you quote is that it's inherently based on the presupposition that the proposal is actually "good". If it's a private developer paying market rates for land and not expecting tax breaks or other incentives then such questions aren't terribly relevant. But the article you posted suggests that isn't the case. When the question arises of how to best spend and manage public resources and not everyone (including me) is even convinced that such a stadium is actually a net benefit to the HRM let alone large swaths of central land, we need to consider all possibilities that exist which could include anything from residential development potentially providing more affordable housing in a central area, to various commercial or institutional uses or other options I'm not even aware of.

To be clear, I'm not "against" the stadium, but I have absolutely not been sold on it supposed benefits at this point either so i think it needs much closer examination before assuming it to be in the "good" column.

I agree with this. It's a big ask when a group comes in looking for money from multiple levels of government whilst also seeking help on repayments long-term. Would be a different story if they had the cash and were willing to finance themselves on the project.

[J.OT13]

No CFL team will ever build their own stadium. They just don't have that kind of revenue. Heck, even the super-rich NFL teams don't, but that's a different story.

The debate should not just be about whether or not the City should subsidize a CFL team, or even the merits of having a CFL franchise. The debate should be about the stadium. If it will bring more events, more economic opportunities, tourism, if it could attract other teams.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The debate should be about the stadium. If it will bring more events, more economic opportunities, tourism, if it could attract other teams.

I agree with much of your sentiment but I think the debate should be about is it a necessary piece of public infrastructure. It's not about will it be profitable, I don't expect it to be profitable.

What I would like to see and unfortunately won't happen is an indoor fieldhouse/stadium a la Fargodome (US84m in today's dollars) that would allow for year round public use rather than a basic seasonal stadium like THF. I think it would be worth 250m to build this kind of structure.

There are all sorts of technologies that could allow for an outdoor feel to this kind of structure, rather than a sterile indoor old style dome. Couple that with a 22k seating capacity vs 30k (or proposed 24k) and that would be additional saving.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by esquire

Seeing that MLSE just bought the team, it seems highly unlikely that they'd already be selling.

And fans have been waiting forever to get to 10 teams. Adding Halifax and staying at 9 would be a bummer. Besides the Argonauts are the oldest professional football team in north America. We have to keep that going.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by isaidso

And fans have been waiting forever to get to 10 teams. Adding Halifax and staying at 9 would be a bummer. Besides the Argonauts are the oldest professional football team in north America. We have to keep that going.

I know. I know. It would most certainly be a bummer.

But at what point does having a very poor franchise in Toronto start to become counterproductive?

Now, it seems league-wide attendance is down, at least in markets like Montreal and Vancouver, so perhaps MLSE needs to just ride this out and, of course, put together a serious plan for success on the business side when things do start to turn.

Anyway, this is off-topic, sorry.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Nice, C'mon Halifax, we want 10 teams!

Hells yeah!

I cannot wait for the 'kitchen parties' this Grey Cup festival here in Edmonton.

Come join, happy to be your tour guide!