Should Canada's Capital be Officially Bilingual

[Acajack]

English has attained a level of global hegemony that no other language ever has (or is likely to surpass in the foreseeable future).

But it may also be that it has peaked or is close to peaking.

As someone123 said, the global economic, diplomatic and military domination of the UK and US that made this happen is no longer what it once was.

Even in terms of culture, things are changing. American TV shows aren't as successful on the export market as they were 15-20 years and with the democratization of AV technologies, it won't be long before places like Bollywood will be making their own blockbusters with awesome special effects.

There is also the remarkable progress of real time translation technologies which will make having a global lingua franca even less important and maybe optional for most anything except for maybe a small number of dealings.

Of course, many people will still be multilingual but the idea of "learn English or die" may be obsolete in the not-too-distant future.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's interesting to me because there is a popular "end of history" type view that the whole world is locked onto a path where English (or some future language very similar to present-day English) will become globally dominant and all others will eventually, at best, go the way of Latin. But actually, if you live in Quebec, learning French has become more important and useful, and French-speaking demographics are growing worldwide. I do think the pendulum was swinging toward English at one point, when Britain and the US were more dominant in global affairs, but that trend may not continue forever and may already have slowed or reversed. That shouldn't be surprising since many languages have risen and fallen in importance during human history.

The highlighted portion makes perfect sense because 98% of the lives of 98% of people in the world are lived locally.

People have lots of wet dreams about their kids' futures but teaching Mandarin to a kid who lives in Toronto is kinda weird when he is 1000 times more likely to end up working for the federal government in Ottawa, or working for a national Canadian company in Mississauga, than he is swinging deals with Beijing.

[DV8]

I have no doubt how easy it is to be totally immersed in French only within parts of Quebec. Language laws on education, signs and dealing with the government are in place to ensure that.
Ontario has been making changes to include French in more government agencies and 3rd party contractors with the government, so we are moving away from total seclusion.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think you fully grasp just how easy it is to live totally oblivious to English for many people in Quebec. Including movies, TV, Internet, etc. Lots of people do this all the time with little more use of English than a

As for pop music in English, sure it's ubiquitous but that doesn't mean the people who listen to it pick up much more English than a random "I love you" and "baby, baby".

I assume you've heard songs in languages other than English before? Even if you've heard stuff like La donna è mobile from Rigoletto or La Macarena a gazllion times it isn't going to make you good in Italian and Spanish by osmosis.

I've actually overheard friends of my kids describe English as "useless", and they live in Gatineau (10 minutes from Ontario) and some of them aren't even of French Canadian origin.

As for transit systems, having bilingual staff is a question of attitude and policy, not about Hollywood blockbusters and the Billboard Hot 100.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by DV8

I have no doubt how easy it is to be totally immersed in French only within parts of Quebec. Language laws on education, signs and dealing with the government are in place to ensure that.
Ontario has been making changes to include French in more government agencies and 3rd party contractors with the government, so we are moving away from total seclusion.

In the vast majority of Quebec regions, actually. Even in rougly 2/3 of the Montreal region.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by DV8

I have no doubt how easy it is to be totally immersed in French only within parts of Quebec. Language laws on education, signs and dealing with the government are in place to ensure that.
Ontario has been making changes to include French in more government agencies and 3rd party contractors with the government, so we are moving away from total seclusion.

Your post is a bit of a slag on Quebec, but when it comes to Ontario, it's true they have been making some efforts to make the province more French-friendly and bilingual.

A lot of it is cosmetics like bilingual signs on government offices and highway signs that say WEST-OUEST and EXIT-SORTIE, but progress is slower when it comes to francophone institutions and even services to the public in French.

That's where you can really counter assimilation.

And the real difference between Quebec and Ontario in terms of the situations of their linguistic minorities.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by begratto

In the vast majority of Quebec regions, actually. Even in rougly 2/3 of the Montreal region.

In terms of geographic space, I'd say it's much higher than two thirds of the Montreal area where you don't really need to use English if you don't want to.

Even in the heart of the West Island, if you go to Fairview Pointe-Claire I bet you if went there every week-end, 9 times out 10 you could shop for an entire afternoon without having to use English with the staff in the stores.

You can shop at Canadian Tire in Kirkland and use only French, go to IGA in Beaconsfield and use only French. Etc.

In all of these places you will of course hear lots of people speaking English around you, but you won't have to use it yourself.

And I am using the most anglo part of the island as an example here. (You may run into the occasional mom and pop shop there where someone doesn't speak French, it's true.)

[MolsonExport]

Even in the heart of the West Island, if you go to Fairview Pointe-Claire I bet you if went there every week-end, 9 times out 10 you could shop for an entire afternoon without having to use English with the staff in the stores.

I can't imagine encountering someone that didn't speak at least passable French working at Fairview.

The most anglo part of the island, I think (however) is NDG, Hampstead, Cote St. Luc, and Montreal West. The West Island is becoming increasingly francophone.

[MolsonExport]

Anglo Montreal graph
http://www.cbc.ca/montreal/features/...ne-census-map/

[1overcosc]

There's a handful of heavily anglo small towns in Quebec (like Shawville) where I imagine it could be difficult to be a unilingual francophone. But that's probably it.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

There's a handful of heavily anglo small towns in Quebec (like Shawville) where I imagine it could be difficult to be a unilingual francophone. But that's probably it.

Anglos in small towns like that often speak French, although they may be loath to admit it. It has been that way for generations.

Although I could see bits up in the Ottawa valley being an exception....

[Acajack]

The traditionally anglo parts of western Montreal are increasingly a Tower of Babel linguistic hodge podge.

You have your usual anglophones and francophones, most of whom are bilingual at this point but with sizeable chunks who are unilingual in their own language, or even unwilling to use the other guy's language.

You also will sporadically bump into the proverbial Chinese or Pakistani dépanneur owner who speaks only English as his "Canadian" language.

And increasingly you have the Senegalese guy who speaks only French delivering pizzas to homes in Dorval, or a Lebanese guy operating a shawarma place only in French in the heart of NDG.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No, the automated announcement systems on the Rapibus (Gatineau) and Métro (Montreal) are not bilingual to my knowledge.

BTW, I find the way they did it on OC Transpo to be a good example of "dumb bilingualism". Like when the name is "Bank", the voice says "Bank" twice, basically the exact same way, just to make the point that it's bilingual.

For most proper names, the system should only say the name once. The only exceptions should be names where the pronounciation is different in English and French, such as "Algonquin" or "Confederation".

Reminds me of a GPS I once had and used when visiting Ottawa. For some reason, all of the street names for exits along the Queensway would be said twice because it seemed as though the GPS program had both English and French streets names. We were visiting friends and the GPS told us to exit on "CARP CARP" and my wife and I couldn't stop laughing.

[DV8]

I don't see how it is a bit of a slag to Quebec, is it not factual?

I think you see assimilation because the huge number of people who do not speak French in Ontario. Do not have customers that use French, or missed the important early learning period to pick up language easier. Away from eastern or northern Ontario, learning French is or may not be seen as important.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Your post is a bit of a slag on Quebec, but when it comes to Ontario, it's true they have been making some efforts to make the province more French-friendly and bilingual.

A lot of it is cosmetics like bilingual signs on government offices and highway signs that say WEST-OUEST and EXIT-SORTIE, but progress is slower when it comes to francophone institutions and even services to the public in French.

That's where you can really counter assimilation.

And the real difference between Quebec and Ontario in terms of the situations of their linguistic minorities.

[rousseau]

Starting at 3:03:

"French speakers in Montreal must speak English to get a job. There are many jobs for English speakers where thy need no French. We accept it as it is, and that's a bit unfair."

Is this really true? I was under the impression that it was the other way around in Montreal, that generally English speakers there need to speak French, but French speakers don't necessarily need to speak English (outside of tourism, or maybe restaurants in Westmount or Mile End).

But not according to this Montréalaise.

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Starting at 3:03:

"French speakers in Montreal must speak English to get a job. There are many jobs for English speakers where thy need no French. We accept it as it is, and that's a bit unfair."

Is this really true? I was under the impression that it was the other way around in Montreal, that generally English speakers there need to speak French, but French speakers don't necessarily need to speak English (outside of tourism, or maybe restaurants in Westmount or Mile End).

But not according to this Montréalaise.

• Video Link

It's a very common perception but I don't think it's accurate. The number of jobs that require bilingualism in Montreal is maybe higher than many francophones consider reasonable. But the number of "English only" jobs is relatively small, and limited to very specific sectors of the economy.

Even a lot of "anglo" jobs require French. If you're a reporter with the Gazette or the CBC you need French for city hall meetings and police briefings, if you're the chairperson of the English school board you need French to deal with the city and province, or to speak to the media. Most staff that work in anglo hospitals in Montreal need to speak French because francophone patients who go those hospitals have a right to service in French there...

BTW, I've seen this video before and even if it's billed as an example of Parisian French vs. Quebec French, the guy doesn't have a Parisian accent at all. At best he sounds like a guy of some other non-francophone origin who's learned French in Paris.

[niwell]

I can't watch the video as I'm at work. But I have a feeling this falls under the category of someone who is having trouble finding a job for any number of reasons and is looking for an easy scapegoat. I saw the same thing in Ottawa where some monolingual anglophones I knew claimed they couldn't get a job because they couldn't speak French. I never seemed to have an issue with my lackluster French...

That being said I'm sure being bilingual makes you more employable.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Reminds me of a GPS I once had and used when visiting Ottawa. For some reason, all of the street names for exits along the Queensway would be said twice because it seemed as though the GPS program had both English and French streets names. We were visiting friends and the GPS told us to exit on "CARP CARP" and my wife and I couldn't stop laughing.

But I bet in neither case did they use the Ottawa Valley pronunciation, which comes close to "Kerp".

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

English has attained a level of global hegemony that no other language ever has (or is likely to surpass in the foreseeable future).
Of course, many people will still be multilingual but the idea of "learn English or die" may be obsolete in the not-too-distant future.

French says hi! (or bonjour!)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...uage-2050.html

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Starting at 3:03:

"French speakers in Montreal must speak English to get a job. There are many jobs for English speakers where thy need no French. We accept it as it is, and that's a bit unfair."

Is this really true? I was under the impression that it was the other way around in Montreal, that generally English speakers there need to speak French, but French speakers don't necessarily need to speak English (outside of tourism, or maybe restaurants in Westmount or Mile End).

Your impression is what I see to be the current nature in Montreal. I think the confusion stems from a lot of jobs requiring bilingualism or competency in both official languages. Similar issues arise in NB quite frequently when disgruntled unilingual-Anglophones go to the media claiming that all Government jobs are French jobs when in reality a certain portion of jobs require both languages, making them ineligible. This could work in reverse in Montreal.

Any time i've been to Montreal i've been able to speak either English or French and received service in either. If anything, most people i've been served by or seen working were Francophones who could speak English. This is a big difference to a place like Québec City where English is definitely not as accessible for an Anglophone, or my trip to a gas station in Montmagny yesterday where the attendants English was (admitted by them) to be very bad. This is all anecdotal of course.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

French says hi! (or bonjour!)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...uage-2050.html

They project 8% of the world's population being able to speak French by 2050; by contrast, English is currently at about 20% and that number is probably not dropping.