Trying to Erase John A. Macdonald from History

[Architype]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

You're lucky. I couldn't escape it, even initially when I wasn't at all proud of our people. And yes, Town was awful, but the outports were just as bitchy to each other, often worse. You would've been treated no better in Bonavista or Burin than you were in St. John's.

Yes that's probably true too, there was a certain hierarchy and rivalry between towns. The Nfld. experience is however very different from that of the native people.

[SignalHillHiker]

Yes, I know. That's what I was trying to say.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Reesonov

From the first page of this thread alone:

Originally Posted by esquire
It's all starting to remind me a bit of Mao-era China... instead of Red Guards we have university sociology departments whipping up hysteria, and now we have people wanting to banish Sir John A. MacDonald the same way that the Maoists turned on Lin Biao and the Gang of Four and ended up purging them.

It's our own kinder, gentler Canadian-style cultural revolution!

Are you saying there aren't hard liners in favour of renaming schools? There are people on my twitter feed posting pics of 'colonialist' statues they think should be torn down immediately... that's getting pretty close to a Red Guard outlook on things.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Are you saying there aren't hard liners in favour of renaming schools? There are people on my twitter feed posting pics of 'colonialist' statues they think should be torn down immediately... that's getting pretty close to a Red Guard outlook on things.

If we follow this trend to the end, at some point we could end up with schools, parks and streets only named for geographic stuff (Twin Elm High School, Maple Run Drive, etc.) and perhaps fairly recent historical figures.

The latter being still possible because people within living memory are more likely to have a life record that falls within our respectability standards. Of course, there is no guarantee that even today's fairly high ethical standards will pass the test in the future, and that Marc Garneau Blvd. won't be deemed an unacceptable name 50 years from now. As far-fetched as that sounds, we have no idea of what people will think in future. I am pretty sure that quite a few of the historical nasties we are talking about who wanted to assimilate aboriginals into a white anglo society honestly thought they were doing them a favour. Some of them likely also thought they were morally righteous for not simply killing them.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If we follow this trend to the end, at some point we could end up with schools, parks and streets only named for geographic stuff (Twin Elm High School, Maple Run Drive, etc.) and perhaps fairly recent historical figures.

The latter being still possible because people within living memory are more likely to have a life record that falls within our respectability standards. Of course, there is no guarantee that even today's fairly high ethical standards will pass the test in the future, and that Marc Garneau Blvd. won't be deemed an unacceptable name 50 years from now. As far-fetched as that sounds, we have no idea of what people will think in future. I am pretty sure that quite a few of the historical nasties we are talking about who wanted to assimilate aboriginals into a white anglo society honestly thought they were doing them a favour. Some of them likely also thought they were morally righteous for not simply killing them.

Too soon to be speaking of a "trend" in Canada, istm. There does seem to be a trend in the USA toward removing monuments that celebrate the Confederacy, but that's a different thing (again, istm).

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If we follow this trend to the end, at some point we could end up with schools, parks and streets only named for geographic stuff (Twin Elm High School, Maple Run Drive, etc.) and perhaps fairly recent historical figures.

Which is fine to a degree. I don't really think bridges/airports/etc. should be named after political figures.

Schools are a whole different ballpark. I attended schools that were named after English monarchs and Saints.

[Dougler306]

This is F%$kin appalling. This guys is are first PM and were dragging his name through the mud. This country is separating at the seems and i'm losing all confidence in man-kind with everyone bringing up butt hurt issues that they try and force on ppl as national or international issues. I hope the teacher that proposed this has receives swift and hard backlash from the public.

[kwoldtimer]

Let it be, people ....

[O-tacular]

Dougler... have you met MIGS?

[kwoldtimer]

Really, you can't just let it be?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

"It's a slippery slope... first confederate monuments, then George Washington..."

Correction: "... then Sir John A. MacDonald, then George Washington."

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Really, you can't just let it be?

Haven't read the last few pages yet, but I'll consider your plea

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Reesonov

In any event, the residential schools were a systematic effort to diminish or destroy first nations cultures.

That was Lord Durham's exact plan for us yet there's still stuff named after him...

Actually, diminishing/erasing local cultures after annexations and conquests has always been great for national unity. Can't fault Durham and the architects of the residential schools system for trying to achieve this for the greater long-term good, in their eyes, of their country. (It's 2017 yet the Chinese, among others, are still actively doing it as I write this.)

If the residential schools had worked better, we wouldn't be having this discussion, as the First Nations would have assimilated into the Canadian mainstream.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Dougler306

This is F%$kin appalling. This guys is are first PM and were dragging his name through the mud. This country is separating at the seems and i'm losing all confidence in man-kind with everyone bringing up butt hurt issues that they try and force on ppl as national or international issues. I hope the teacher that proposed this has receives swift and hard backlash from the public.

Let me make sure I understand. Publicly mentioning that Sir John started the Residential School system is "dragging his name through the mud". And those who don't like him being honored, perhaps people who suffered through that system, had siblings die from it or be molested by it, these people are "butt hurt".

Sorry I just want to make sure I understand what sort of person you are.

Thanks

Oh by the way, this is a quote from Duncan Campbell Scott, Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs from 1913 until 1932 about the residential schools:

“It is readily acknowledged that Indian children lose their natural resistance to illness by habitating so closely in these schools, and that they die at a much higher rate than in their villages. But this alone does not justify a change in the policy of this Department, which is being geared towards the final solution of our Indian Problem."

https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/10-quotes...-first-nations

[MonctonRad]

I doubt that his (Mr Scott's) idea of the "final solution" is quite the same as Adolph's, but it is an interesting turn of phrase nonetheless......

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I doubt that his (Mr Scott's) idea of the "final solution" is quite the same as Adolph's, but it is an interesting turn of phrase nonetheless......

Those two words have become permanently tainted (kind of like Hitler's signature mustache style, which was previously common and is now extinct) but on a strictly logical basis there's no fundamental reason to fear a "final solution" to a persistent problem. As I pointed out earlier assimilation over the long term can prove to be a reasonable final solution to inter-cultural conflicts, and I can't blame people like Lord Durham for aiming for it, all things considered.

Also, kindly take note that you'll have to ask the SSP staff to change your username ASAP; it's intolerably offensive to me (I'm of Acadian descent and my ancestors suffered even worse hardships than residential schools).

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by lio45

Those two words have become permanently tainted (kind of like Hitler's signature mustache style, which was previously common and is now extinct) but on a strictly logical basis there's no fundamental reason to fear a "final solution" to a persistent problem. As I pointed out earlier assimilation over the long term can prove to be a reasonable final solution to inter-cultural conflicts, and I can't blame people like Lord Durham for aiming for it, all things considered.

Also, kindly take note that you'll have to ask the SSP staff to change your username ASAP; it's intolerably offensive to me (I'm of Acadian descent and my ancestors suffered even worse hardships than residential schools).

However, context of the term should not be bereft by walling it in the bold. You have to read the whole sentence to understand that the objectives were similar. In the case of Scott, accelerating the propogation of deadly diseases was the end goal for addressing the "Indian Problem". What was Hitler's solution?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

However, context of the term should not be bereft by walling it in the bold. You have to read the whole sentence to understand that the objectives were similar. In the case of Scott, accelerating the propogation of deadly diseases was the end goal for addressing the "Indian Problem". What was Hitler's solution?

The way I read Scott's statement, he deplores the higher fatality rates, but thinks sticking to the plan is still worth it in the grand scheme of things despite that drawback.

He could easily have instead pointed out that the higher death rate was a feature, not a bug, since it was completely aligned with the final objective of the program - no unassimilated natives left. But he essentially said the opposite.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

What was Hitler's solution?

Certainly not keeping the Jews in Germany, banning their religion, and forcing them to mingle with non-Jewish Germans.

[JM5]

Good discussion here. Not much smugness or browbeating. Seems like minds are a bit more open.