Hudson City - what if Hudson Co, NJ were a city?

[kcexpress69]

Interesting concept. Not sure how realistic it would be, but it's something to chew on!!

[bossabreezes]

I've thought about at least a Hudson-Essex or Hudson-Bergen county fusion, but it'll never happen.

Unlike Hudson County, Essex and Bergen counties are extremely unequal socially. Both have impoverished inner cities (poorer cities than Hudson County), but they also have extremely wealthy suburban communities. Bergen County is the second wealthiest county in the country, despite poor towns in the southern part of the county.

Essex has Newark, but also has Short Hills. These two counties are a tale of two cities, unlike Hudson county, which is thoroughly mixed like any city would be.

I think the better way of tackling this subject is realizing that although all of these places have close proximity to New York City, they dont rely on New York at this point anymore. They developed, of course, because of their proximity to the largest city in the country- yes, but in 2019 they don't rely on New York and very much function as a fusion of commuter cities x their own economies.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by McBane

I've had this very thought for a long time. Even the name, Hudson City.

Usually the biggest issue with consolidation is that rich people don't want to subsidize poor people. Everyone knows about the Gold Coast, but inland, I don't know much about these communities. Are there major disparities between the various towns?

But besides that, I'm trying to think of tangible benefits. Municipal spending should come down. Being able to claim you live in the 21st largest city in the country or the largest city in NJ is not a tangible benefit. Representation in congress or the state legislature wouldn't change. What am I missing?

Maybe Newark could join as well. Then "New Jersey City" would push a million people.

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Even the poorest municipality in Hudson County is significantly wealthier than Newark (median household income of only $31,100). Obviously there are some poor neighborhoods, but it runs the range from lower-middle/working class to gentrified.

Essex County has some of the most extreme wealth divide I think I've ever seen. The change is very dramatic. You could literally be in an area with million dollar homes, and just walking 4-5 blocks, you go from rich to very poor real quick.

Example being Maplewood and Irvington or Short Hills and South Orange.

It creeps up on you. Sometimes its not gradual. Its very rich, and than flat out hood.

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

Maybe Newark could join as well. Then "New Jersey City" would push a million people.

Newark is a very underrated city with a lot of potential. Relative to JC, its growing woefully slow. Granted there is activity going on, more than in the past, and there are quite a fair amount of projects in the pipeline, but compared to JC, its small potatoes.

University Heights, and Downtown could use more residential.

[Antares41]

Consolidation of Hudson County into one single entity would be an awesome idea. I think it plausible if they could ever work out their legacies issues. But from the standpoint of managing the significant growth in the region and even spreading it to other areas in the county it has great potential.

[tone99loc]

The benefits of municipal consolidation have been very slow to come to NJ and the movement has been almost non-existent in Northern NJ which has has had 150 years of entrenched boro-itis. But the growth and (can we say success?) of the Hudson Bergen Light Rail (which is mostly Hudson County) has been encouraging. Just a couple decades ago, it would be UNIMAGINABLE to even think of unifying Hudson County (namely because there are STARK contrasts between Bayonne and nearby the Greenville section of Jersey City.. likewise for Secaucus which I would say is the only true "suburb" in Hudson County by American standards. So the racial and educational divides are real and the biggest impediments to unification, but I think there would be benefits for each community if it happened. For those that don't live nearby, some cool things Hudson County has are: a bridge to Staten Island, a terminal for cruise ships, world class views of Manhattan, Stevens Institute of Technology, Liberty Science Center, a recently renovated Pulaski Skyway (one of the coolest bridges in the country, albeit very dangerous and outdated) and some awesome food from all over the world.

[dc_denizen]

New York is basically a bi nodal metro anyhow...

North jersey (6 million) and New York (14 million)

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by bossabreezes

If you take the PATH, you quite literally get to Manhattan faster than probably 90% of Brooklyn and 80% of Queens.

Mileage wise Hudson is obviously closer as well, but being in the PATH nodes is pretty much as good as it gets. You can get to Midtown and Downtown faster than anywhere in Northern Manhattan, The Bronx, most of Queens and pretty much all of Brooklyn.

It's all purely mental and snobbery.

That being said, it would be great to have the Subway extended into Hudson County. It will never happen, but it would definitely be nice. If that happened, the county would double in population in 10 years most likely.

its not all mental snobbery. i mean thats fine if you live and work in nj, but not if you reverse commute so to speak. years ago it cost my spouse at least $5G the minute she set foot in hoboken when her offices moved over there. and our then dual state taxes got all messed up too.

that aside, consolidation is a great idea for any conglomerations of unnecessarily repetitive government functions, if it can be done wisely. its just so difficult to move these entrenched legacy burbs and towns. ie., its not always about the greater good as those local politicians want to keep their jobs and power. i dk maybe make it a goal and start with services one by one, like sanitation or roadworks or something like that? see how it goes?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

its not all mental snobbery. i mean thats fine if you live and work in nj, but not if you reverse commute so to speak. years ago it cost my spouse at least $5G the minute she set foot in hoboken when her offices moved over there. and our then dual state taxes got all messed up too.

Surely you mean $5k, I doubt it cost her five billion dollars (unless she owns the entire company, and it's huge, and the relocation was a disaster).

[McBane]

The interesting thing about Hudson County is the rich/poor dichotomy varies based on proximity to the waterfront. It's not so much rich towns vs poor towns, which is usually what dooms consolidation. Most Hudson County towns have a waterfront and so Consolidation would not necessarily pit poor towns vs wealthy towns, although of course there would still be plenty of pushback.

[Crawford]

There are tangible reasons why Hudson County costs less than comparable areas of Brooklyn/Queens, beyond the "Jersey snobbery". It's true that Hudson County has excellent urbanity for U.S. standards, but still doesn't have urban equivalents to, say, Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope and Williamsburg.

Also, people generally prefer not having to transfer trains. If you're on PATH as opposed to MTA subway, you're likely to have a worse commute. Cross-Hudson commutes are more difficult than other directionals, and that's built into RE costs.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

There are tangible reasons why Hudson County costs less than comparable areas of Brooklyn/Queens, beyond the "Jersey snobbery". It's true that Hudson County has excellent urbanity for U.S. standards, but still doesn't have urban equivalents to, say, Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope and Williamsburg.

Downtown Jersey City and most of Hoboken seem very similar to me in terms of housing stock. Almost all brick/stone (no frame crap like the areas further inland) varying in scale from three-story rowhouses to six-story walkups.

I mean, this is plenty dense and charming, no?

Downtown JC is still a little bit sparse in terms of higher-end shopping and dining I suppose, but it's not as far along in gentrification as Hoboken.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Pavlov's Dog

Like you say municipal spending could become much more efficient and effective. Whether that translates to lower taxes and/or better services is a good opportunity.

When you cut out a layer of government and combine this many municipalities a lot of fat can be trimmed. I imagine that there is a lot of duplication of services and staffing that could be combined to provide better services at lower rates. For both citizens and businesses it is also beneficial to cut down on the number of bureaucracies you have to deal with.

Given the development, growth and positive trend going on there currently, together with baby boomers retiring from local government jobs, now is a very opportune time to consolidate.

I agree with both of you here. I grew up outside of Pittsburgh. Would you believe that it is one of 130 individual municipalities that make up Allegheny County? I wish my hometown of Baldwin would consolidate. Unfortunately this borough came to be when Baldwin Township split up in the 1940s. Some of the township was absorbed into the City itself; I believe Brookline is one of those neighborhoods - among the last to be annex by Pittsburgh. Then you have what is left of Baldwin Twp along with the boroughs of Brentwood, north and south Baldwin, Whitehall to name a few.

Anyway, North and South Baldwin really don't have any commercial business districts; this is just a bedroom community. Local government just wants to keep/maintain its sovereignty , and 90% of the residents are sheep that wonder why their taxes are among the highest in the state. I wish this whole area would be absorved into the City of Pittsburgh itself.

Anyway, pardon that tangent. I didn't realize Hudson County voted to consolidate as far back as the civil war era! It's crazy to think about what could have transpired if they had all agreed to do so back then.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Downtown Jersey City and most of Hoboken seem very similar to me in terms of housing stock. Almost all brick/stone (no frame crap like the areas further inland) varying in scale from three-story rowhouses to six-story walkups.

Yeah, these areas have high quality brownstone urbanity, but comparatively smaller and sparser, with fewer amenities. There are equivalents to Brownstone Brooklyn in Queens and the Bronx too, but, like Hudson County, they're priced less. It's more a few blocks here and there, and not quite the same quality.

This is Park Slope. I think it's obvious why there would be a price premium:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6710...7i16384!8i8192

[McBane]

Comparing the shared Street View links of Hoboken and Park Slope I don't think it's "obvious" one is wealthier or more expensive than the other. The built environment and street features look very similar to me. The reasons for why one is more expensive than the other are many and not relevant to this thread.

[C.]

The one good thing that might come out of New Jersey's high property taxes is that it may force municipal consolidation. Maybe not so much in Hudson County but there are other areas of the state that are rapidly losing population while there municipal budgets are growing. At some point there will be a breaking point.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by McBane

Comparing the shared Street View links of Hoboken and Park Slope I don't think it's "obvious" one is wealthier or more expensive than the other. The built environment and street features look very similar to me.

It's subjective, to be sure, but I think there are clear differences. Park Slope was built to be the wealthiest neighborhood in the country, and is full of the most prominent residential architects of the day, like Rosario Candela and Montrose Morris, all surrounding one of the most iconic parks on earth. The only other place with Candelas is around Central Park. It's generally considered the best Romanesque Revival neighborhood outside of Britain.

Jersey City has a few blocks of brownstones for successful merchants, mixed in with more prosaic housing, not unlike analogous areas in Queens and the Bronx. It doesn't really have any large-scale contiguous brownstone feel.

[bossabreezes]

Have you walked around Van Vorst Park, Hamilton Park and Paulus Hook in Jersey City? Sure, those neighborhoods aren't connected to each other physically, but they all have very substantial, contiguous, pre-war brownstone construction.

The gaps between these neighborhoods are being filled with more high-density/high rise development, not unlike many prime areas of Brooklyn.

Hoboken is nice but it doesn't compare to Jersey City in it's brownstone stock.

Anyway, the facts are that Hudson County is exploding in development and has huge demand. It's an avalanche effect at this point, and it won't stop anytime soon. There are still neighborhoods with fantastic urban fabrics/brownstones that are currently in the earlier stages of gentrification and offer lots of opportunity (see Bergen-Lafayette, in Jersey City.)

[Hamilton]

Originally Posted by Pavlov's Dog

With a population of 691,000 in 2018 (up from 634,000 in 2010) it would rank 21st between Washington DC and Boston. With a density of about 14,700 per mile2 it would rank 3rd after NYC and San Francisco amont cities with more than half a million in population.

To put it in a different perspective, it would have virtually the same population as Boston, at a slightly higher population density (slightly smaller land area).