Ranking of city size by Intuition.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by JAYNYC

Wow! What a list. No: L.A., Chicago, S.F., Hou/Dal/Atl - but Buffalo, Hamilton, Rochester & Syracuse? 🤔🤔🤔

Well, he lives in Ottawa, and those cities are within a day's drive.

I know a guy who went to Dallas because he's a huge fan of the show Dallas, but other than that no Canadian I've known has visited Houston, Dallas or Atlanta for any other reason than a business trip.

[dc_denizen]

So?

[hipster duck]

^The OP was shocked that a forumer from Ottawa would visit mid-sized cities within a few hour's drive of his house but not visit Dallas, Houston or Atlanta - cities that require a flight and are not usually tourist destinations.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^The OP was shocked that a forumer from Ottawa would visit mid-sized cities within a few hour's drive of his house but not visit Dallas, Houston or Atlanta - cities that require a flight and are not usually tourist destinations.

That may be a misperception of Atlanta. Atlanta actually has quite a bit to offer visitors who are urbanists but not so much to offer somebody just looking to sit on a beach or by a pool or maybe play golf or go fishing.

[mhays]

Last time we discussed that, even the Atlanta boosters conceded that it's not a big center for pleasure tourism.

The existence of diversions isn't enough reason for most people to visit a city, even just counting the sorts who visit cities.

[austin242]

Only the cities I've been to.

1: NYC
2: Chicago
3: Dallas
4: Denver
5: Houston
6: Detroit
7: Austin
8: Columbus
9: Nashville
10: San Antonio
11: New Orleans
12: Cincinnati
13: Memphis
14: Ft worth
15: Colorado Springs
16: Corpus Christi

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by mhays

Last time we discussed that, even the Atlanta boosters conceded that it's not a big center for pleasure tourism.

The existence of diversions isn't enough reason for most people to visit a city, even just counting the sorts who visit cities.

I visited Atlanta back in 2012 for about 4 days. Me and the gf decided their NYE celebration was decent(there was some 80s band there I forgot the name of she wanted to see) and I wanted to see some of the urban sides of town. We both enjoyed ourselves. We went to the Coke museum thing, CNN (I met Robin Meade!), the aquarium and otherwise, we spent time in five points, midtown, and near our hotel out in the northern burbs.

Admittedly, she probably wouldn't want to go back, its not worth it to her. But I would, although my want-to-explore-new-development-etc viewpoint is obviously biased.

[kool maudit]

Stockholm and Copenhagen are about the same size, but Stockholm feels far larger. It comes down to the city's layout on its islands; they both force the core neighbourhoods higher in terms of density and stretch out the metro area over a vast land area. Copenhagen holds its 2.1 million people in 2,000 sq. km while Stockholm holds 2.3 in about 6,000. You would think this might make it feel smaller but its puffy core is basically Vienna.

Vienna looks like Paris from above but on street level you feel the lack of human crush. Like Montreal, that 'deadness' can make it feel smaller than the buildings suggest.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Stockholm and Copenhagen are about the same size, but Stockholm feels far larger. It comes down to the city's layout on its islands; they both force the core neighbourhoods higher in terms of density and stretch out the metro area over a vast land area. Copenhagen holds its 2.1 million people in 2,000 sq. km while Stockholm holds 2.3 in about 6,000. You would think this might make it feel smaller but its puffy core is basically Vienna.

How does Helsinki (not sure if you've been there) compare to Stockholm and Copenhagen?

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Vienna looks like Paris from above but on street level you feel the lack of human crush. Like Montreal, that 'deadness' can make it feel smaller than the buildings suggest.

Population density in downtown Montreal is heading up significantly so it's more a matter of time before it has that 'human crush' as you put it. What to do with areas like St. Denis north of Sherbrooke though? You can't add density anywhere unless you build on top of those triplexes and I can't see how one could do it in an acceptable way.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Well, he lives in Ottawa, and those cities are within a day's drive.

Aside from Vegas, Pretty much this ^

re: Visiting cities like Atlanta or Houston

If I happened on an opportunity? Sure in a heartbeat!,.I would love to explore both of those cities...It just wouldn't be a planned trip..For planned U.S city destinations.. Boston, Chicago and DC would be more on my radar..Boston, a day's drive..The other two..Short flights.

[mhays]

Here's the thing about residential population density...it takes a TON to produce busy sidewalks, to say nothing of a "crush." Manhattan and even Hong Kong are full of quietish back streets in areas with 100,000+ residential density even with some business mixed in. At that density, the activity can be focused on a few major streets (like Manhattan's avenues whose centerlines are about 950' apart if I recall) to create that crush in limited areas.

But really the crush is about tourists and office workers. Office buildings have much higher people-per-area ratios than most housing. Tourists crowd certain districts in ways residents don't, eat mostly in restaurants, throng museums, and so on.

[Chicago103]

If going by the feel of the Central Business District and scope and density of surrounding neighborhoods.

1. New York City
2. Chicago
(Toronto)
3. Los Angeles
4. San Francisco
5. Washington D.C.
6. Philadelphia

If travelling extensively to areas all over the city limits.

1. New York City
2. Los Angeles
3. Chicago
(Toronto)
4. Philadelphia
5. San Francisco
6. Washington D.C.

[Tom In Chicago]

Not in terms of "feel" but actually how it is. . .

Winnipeg
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Chicago
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New York City
Los Angeles
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Thunder Bay
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Toronto, San Francisco, Vancouver, Montreal, Washington DC, Miami
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Calgary, Philadelphia, Denver, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta

I too am surprised at how Chicago is actually closer to New York and Los Angeles than it is to Winnipeg. . . I thought it would be closer to Winnipeg, but I was wrong. . .

. . .

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by isaidso

How does Helsinki (not sure if you've been there) compare to Stockholm and Copenhagen?



Population density in downtown Montreal is heading up significantly so it's more a matter of time before it has that 'human crush' as you put it. What to do with areas like St. Denis north of Sherbrooke though? You can't add density anywhere unless you build on top of those triplexes and I can't see how one could do it in an acceptable way.

Helsinki is noticeably smaller, but with a certain grandeur as it is the capital. Comparable to Gothenburg.

I don't know what the issue is with Montreal but it does not appear able to fully support its retail strips at the moment.

[dimondpark]

Old screenshots I put on flickr like 7 years ago...anyhow I tend to go by how large the 5K+ or 10K+ density cluster is.

To scale


To scale

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Helsinki is noticeably smaller, but with a certain grandeur as it is the capital. Comparable to Gothenburg.

I don't know what the issue is with Montreal but it does not appear able to fully support its retail strips at the moment.

Montreal always struck me as having an absurd amount of retail. Perhaps it's now more in line with the population.

[Ric 0_0]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

I visited Atlanta back in 2012 for about 4 days. Me and the gf decided their NYE celebration was decent(there was some 80s band there I forgot the name of she wanted to see) and I wanted to see some of the urban sides of town. We both enjoyed ourselves. We went to the Coke museum thing, CNN (I met Robin Meade!), the aquarium and otherwise, we spent time in five points, midtown, and near our hotel out in the northern burbs.

Admittedly, she probably wouldn't want to go back, its not worth it to her. But I would, although my want-to-explore-new-development-etc viewpoint is obviously biased.

It seems like you hits a couple of the big tickets; however, you missed a couple more attractions such as the MLK complex (his house, museum, etc), the High, the Cyclorama, Botanical Gardens (these are excellent), and a couple others. They also recently opended the center for civil rights which is cool.

[MolsonExport]

for human crush feeling, nothing I have experienced comes remotely close to the giants of Asia that I have visited. of those, Tokyo is the standout...even though both Shanghai and Seoul have greater density, Tokyo has these insane nodes that are unbeatable for crush; the two most impressive being Shibuya and Shinjuku. That, friends and neighbors, is where the pulse of humanity is the strongest. I love it.

Probably Hong Kong has such spots as well, but I have yet to experience that pleasure.

In Canada/US, there is New York (pales next to the biggies of Asia, but leaves all the other cities in both countries in the dust). In Canada, I would say Montreal. Toronto is getting there, but somehow falls short of the mark, probably because of its less organic growth (something very phony about that square at Yonge St.; doesn't help that it is emblazoned with signs for "Winners" and other retail chain-dreck). Rue St. Catherine in Montreal still takes the cake.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

for human crush feeling, nothing I have experienced comes remotely close to the giants of Asia that I have visited. of those, Tokyo is the standout...even though both Shanghai and Seoul have greater density, Tokyo has these insane nodes that are unbeatable for crush; the two most impressive being Shibuya and Shinjuku. That, friends and neighbors, is where the pulse of humanity is the strongest. I love it.

Probably Hong Kong has such spots as well, but I have yet to experience that pleasure.

In Canada/US, there is New York (pales next to the biggies of Asia, but leaves all the other cities in both countries in the dust). In Canada, I would say Montreal. Toronto is getting there, but somehow falls short of the mark, probably because of its less organic growth (something very phony about that square at Yonge St.; doesn't help that it is emblazoned with signs for "Winners" and other retail chain-dreck). Rue St. Catherine in Montreal still takes the cake.

I was underwhelmed by Shibuya when I first visited. I was expecting it to be Times Square on steroids, but it felt more like Times Square-lite. I think the only place where Tokyo is a clear winner over NYC for density of human activity is Shinjuku Station. I have never been in a train station that is so massive.
Other than that, nothing I witnessed in Tokyo was beyond what one could find in Manhattan.

Myeongdong in Seoul was definitely a crush of activity that was beyond what I have witnessed in Tokyo, or what is normal for New York. But that was just a shopping district that stretched for several city blocks. Seoul overall did not feel to be an insane crush of activity. It's a dense city for sure, but it is not a shock to the system if you are someone who regularly visits Manhattan.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I was underwhelmed by Shibuya when I first visited. I was expecting it to be Times Square on steroids, but it felt more like Times Square-lite. I think the only place where Tokyo is a clear winner over NYC for density of human activity is Shinjuku Station. I have never been in a train station that is so massive.
Other than that, nothing I witnessed in Tokyo was beyond what one could find in Manhattan.

Myeongdong in Seoul was definitely a crush of activity that was beyond what I have witnessed in Tokyo, or what is normal for New York. But that was just a shopping district that stretched for several city blocks. Seoul overall did not feel to be an insane crush of activity. It's a dense city for sure, but it is not a shock to the system if you are someone who regularly visits Manhattan.

I still don't understand the "Tokyo crush" claims. In the stations, yes. But the streets aren't close to peak density in Manhattan, which makes sense given Tokyo's multinodal nature and overall flat mid-level density over a vast expanse. Shibuya doesn't have Times Square or Penn Plaza-type pedestrian counts.

Now HK had extreme pedestrian crush. There are some crazy corridors in HK. Tokyo reminded me more of Mexico City, with humanity everywhere but no real ultra-busy areas.