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  #661  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I don't disagree that we're rich enough to sustain the status quo of sustaining remote communities. But it isn't a route to reconciliation. The members of those communities will not be happy, as they will never recieve any more than the bare minimum to sustain life up there (and probably not that), and the rest of Canada will remain resentful of the wasteful spending. I'm really not sure what the way forward is, as forcibly relocating them is also not an option - it's completely understandable that First Nations would not trust another forced move from the Federal government 'for their own good'.

Perhaps education is the best way forward, but this really is a means to an end - the end being the young people wanting more opportunities and moving away, and the community eventually ceasing to exist.
Investment in enhanced educational opportunities in indigenous communities will happen anyway, as there is no moral "out" on that front in the early 21st century.
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  #662  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:51 PM
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What is the end goal though? These communities living from the hand of government for another century? That appears to be the outcome we will get unless they can find a way to be economically productive.
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  #663  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
^And how's reconciliation going for South Africa, by the way? Everything peachy?

First it's an apology. Then it's a couple street signs. Then they come with pitchforks and machetes to take back their land.

Honestly considering the history much better than most would have realistically guessed, despite what many of the hysterical sources on the internet would have you believe. I'm guessing you've never bothered to go or talk to people who are currently living there (not expats who left in the mid 90s). There's about a 75% chance I'll be living there for 6 months early next year and I'm not worried about it.

Your second point is even more ridiculous. We've been changing street names for centuries. Australia changed a ton to recognize aboriginal histories decades ago and last I checked the country hadn't burst into flames. I know you are hinting at the land expropriation issue in SA (and subsequent release of a list of properties that may or may not be accurate), but that's an extremely complicated issue that delves into the weird eccentricities of that countries politics. My personal guess is that it's an ANC sop to appease the EFF and ensure that insane party doesn't gain more traction. We'll see of course, but most large businesses seem to be banking on that as well.

I agree on the general point that changing street names doesn't get to the core issue, but not entirely sure what the harm is. We aren't destroying history (street signs aren't history) but simply recognizing existence. I'm pessimistic about further actions but I can't fathom how it's harmful. It must be a weird existence to view these things as an existential threat to your existence (as to what I don't know).
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  #664  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:03 PM
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This. Canada is rich enough and the population involved of a manageable enough size for this to be able to continue for quite some time.

If there is pressure to relocate certain communities en masse, it will come from the communities themselves. Not from governments dominated by non-indigenous people.

This is my general view as well. The fact of the matter is that we decided the placement of these communities, many of which (such as those in northern Ontario) are not economically viable within the constraints of our economic system*. The burden remains on the government to provide for them until they decide otherwise. Any "solutions" will invariably take a long time to come to fruition.

*You can obviously point to reserves that are right outside major cities or in economically productive areas, but that's generally not what I'm referring to here. With some glaring exceptions they are usually in better shape.


EDIT: before anyone jumps on me, I'm not talking about the "white man's burden", white guilt, shame about or history or whatever. Rather from a policy perspective.
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  #665  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:18 PM
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This is my general view as well. The fact of the matter is that we decided the placement of these communities, many of which (such as those in northern Ontario) are not economically viable within the constraints of our economic system*. The burden remains on the government to provide for them until they decide otherwise. Any "solutions" will invariably take a long time to come to fruition.

*You can obviously point to reserves that are right outside major cities or in economically productive areas, but that's generally not what I'm referring to here. With some glaring exceptions they are usually in better shape.


EDIT: before anyone jumps on me, I'm not talking about the "white man's burden", white guilt, shame about or history or whatever. Rather from a policy perspective.
So sustain them for perpetuity? Setting aside the economics, which I doubt is that much of a burden for Canada and I don't particularly care about, what of the fate of the inhabitants? Can a group of people who will forever be sustained (poorly) only by the government ever be happy?
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  #666  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:25 PM
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So sustain them for perpetuity? Setting aside the economics, which I doubt is that much of a burden for Canada and I don't particularly care about, what of the fate of the inhabitants? Can a group of people who will forever be sustained (poorly) only by the government ever be happy?

And that's the million dollar question. I would hope for at least improvements in infrastructure and access to education in the short term.
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  #667  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:27 PM
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And that's the million dollar question. I would hope for at least improvements in infrastructure and access to education in the short term.
In any event - it's not really a question of happiness or unhappiness.

We don't move people against their will, especially not indigenous communities after everything that's happened in the past.

It seems like for the moment the will of the majority of the people in these communities is to stay put and try and make things work there.
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  #668  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:54 PM
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^It's the will of those there partly because many of those who want to get away leave to the city by themselves.
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  #669  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 5:10 PM
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I really liked Environment Minister Catherine McKenna's comments on this issue yesterday:

The minister responsible for Parks Canada says tearing down statues is not the solution when it comes to addressing the darker side of Canadian history...

..“I’ve tasked them to look at how do you have a thoughtful way with addressing concerns with certain people in our history, but you can’t erase history,” McKenna said.

“I personally believe that it’s important that we recognize our history – the good and bad – and that we tell stories, because it’s by telling stories we recognize that we can do better.”...(bold mine)


https://globalnews.ca/news/4389453/c...tatue-removal/

I've always felt this was the right way to look at the issue. Governments fund a lot of artist work already, why not fund projects for indigenous peoples to respond in place to controversial art works?

Last edited by whatnext; Aug 16, 2018 at 6:13 PM.
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  #670  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 5:32 PM
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got it wrong...deleted.
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  #671  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2018, 2:16 PM
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  #672  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2018, 2:43 PM
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In the end the whole statue removal thing seems only to achieve a pointless stirring up of tensions. I personally don't care that much (I'd rather they weren't removed, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it), but it's clear many other people do. It seems the only 'gain' to removing the statues is a perceived victory from those who want it down which also equates to a perceived defeat by those that want it to stay - which is creating division rather than removing it, the opposite of what we should want.

The amount of heated discussion on this board and across the media over this minor event proves this. Did stirring up this hornet nest really help the cause of reconciliation long term? My opinion - definitely not. It just pissed off regular people who before may have not had strong opinions. And for what gain? Nothing. I'd suggest anyone truly offended by the statue needs to reconsider their priorities.
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  #673  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2018, 6:27 PM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
In the end the whole statue removal thing seems only to achieve a pointless stirring up of tensions. I personally don't care that much (I'd rather they weren't removed, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it), but it's clear many other people do. It seems the only 'gain' to removing the statues is a perceived victory from those who want it down which also equates to a perceived defeat by those that want it to stay - which is creating division rather than removing it, the opposite of what we should want.

The amount of heated discussion on this board and across the media over this minor event proves this. Did stirring up this hornet nest really help the cause of reconciliation long term? My opinion - definitely not. It just pissed off regular people who before may have not had strong opinions. And for what gain? Nothing. I'd suggest anyone truly offended by the statue needs to reconsider their priorities.
Couldn't agree more.

If anyone thinks waging war on statues of the first PM of Canada is a good way to unify all Canadians behind their cause, they could hardly be more wrong.

The main effect of learning that "natives demand we remove our statues of great past statesmen" would likely be to turn me less sympathetic to them and their demands, in fact. They're obviously idiots with no sense of priorities and no respect for what others find important.

(now, yes, I know it's only a minority, but I'm just pointing out the general effect this attitude has on people.)
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  #674  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2018, 6:49 PM
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CBC is about to cover this story saying this act of vandalism is the fault of the people who criticized Maxime Bernier.
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  #675  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2018, 10:22 PM
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We encourage vandalism when we give into the demands. All this leads to, is further desecrations. Wait for this to reach Parliament Hill. Then it becomes a national crisis and this is what is wanted. Victoria should not have given into this blackmail. This has nothing to do with reconciliation at all. Reconciliation should be about learning from the past to move to a better future, not denying the past. This is not helping the cause at all.

I wish somebody had photographed them doing this. Now they have blazenly posted a video of spraying paint over the statue in Montreal. I will not honour these idiots by posting a link.
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  #676  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2018, 10:29 PM
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Couldn't agree more.

If anyone thinks waging war on statues of the first PM of Canada is a good way to unify all Canadians behind their cause, they could hardly be more wrong.

The main effect of learning that "natives demand we remove our statues of great past statesmen" would likely be to turn me less sympathetic to them and their demands, in fact. They're obviously idiots with no sense of priorities and no respect for what others find important.

(now, yes, I know it's only a minority, but I'm just pointing out the general effect this attitude has on people.)
I would feel the same. I find most outward forms of protest turn me off the cause.
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  #677  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2018, 10:37 PM
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You know what all this means? Some of the indigenous peoples want to deny or discredit Canada's existence. Isn't that the ultimate slap in the face?
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  #678  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2018, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
The main effect of learning that "natives demand we remove our statues of great past statesmen" would likely be to turn me less sympathetic to them and their demands, in fact. They're obviously idiots with no sense of priorities and no respect for what others find important.
I tend to agree with this. There is such a thing as political capital and it is probably not well spent on statues of dead people who may have done bad things to other dead people.

The idea that reconciliation is about responding to a series of moral outrages with appeasement is flawed and that tack is unlikely to work well in the long run. There is no end to that interaction and it makes people feel worse, not better. It should be more like a negotiation in good faith, with all parties realizing that they need to put in some work and make compromises. That better approach is incompatible with making uncompromising demands based on whatever hot button issue of the day goes viral on twitter.
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  #679  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2018, 1:03 AM
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I dunno, the handwringing about how awful this is, is kinda pushing me from not caring that much towards their side...

But hey, I’m a student of history who realizes that milquetoast acceptance never got anything done.
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  #680  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2018, 3:30 PM
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"The Chinese has no British instincts or British feelings or aspirations...if [the Chinese] came in great numbers and settled on the Pacific coast they might control the vote of that whole Province, and they would send Chinese representative[s] to sit here, who would represent Chinese eccentricities, Chinese immorality, Asiatic principles altogether opposite to our wishes; and, in the even balance of parties, they might enforce those Asiatic principles, those immoralities . . . , the eccentricities which are abhorrent to the Aryan race and Aryan principles, on this House.” (Source)

- Sir John A. MacDonald, 1885, on why people of Chinese ancestry should be denied the right to vote.

Thus began decades of institutionalized racism in Canada against Chinese immigrants, dictating where they could settle, what jobs they could hold, what businesses they could start, how much they could borrow, who they could marry, enacting a punitive head tax, etc.

And, yet, Chinese Canadians aren't exactly lining up to be on the side of Aboriginal activists right now. I wonder why?
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