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  #21  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 3:55 PM
Me&You Me&You is offline
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Is there a similar set of maps for a standard income across all metros? I'd be more interested to see how they compare apples-to-apples, rather than as a relative within the respective metro...
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  #22  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 3:57 PM
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It's important to remember these are maps of relative income within the CMA against its average. Calgary's average is almost $20,000 more than than many of the others, so the relatively poor here may be more average in the Canadian average.
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  #23  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Low annual income but high personal net worth maybe?
Or reporting real incomes
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  #24  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 4:36 PM
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Vancouver has Winnipeg incomes with San Francisco housing prices.
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  #25  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 5:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Daveography View Post
I've been through the NE side a few times, but mostly the commercial / industrial parts and never found them to be "representative" of lower-income areas, but I've never been in the residential areas there, maybe that's where it's more noticeable.
The business areas are like any other. It's the residential side you see it on.
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  #26  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Low annual income but high personal net worth maybe?
No, low income.

Most of the Chinese nouveau riche live on the west side of the City of Vancouver, and also in West Vancouver on the hills.

The central part of Richmond has a lot of cheap apartments, and then middle income Chinese people living in new condo developments that aren't necessarily as wealthy as people make them out to be.
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  #27  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 6:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Me&You View Post
Is there a similar set of maps for a standard income across all metros? I'd be more interested to see how they compare apples-to-apples, rather than as a relative within the respective metro...
True, but then the purchasing power parity of $50,000 in Winnipeg and Halifax is completely different from the PPP in Toronto or Vancouver.
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  #28  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
No, low income.

Most of the Chinese nouveau riche live on the west side of the City of Vancouver, and also in West Vancouver on the hills.

The central part of Richmond has a lot of cheap apartments, and then middle income Chinese people living in new condo developments that aren't necessarily as wealthy as people make them out to be.
OK, thanks for the précision. I would never have thought of that about Richmond.
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  #29  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 7:34 PM
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I'm not usually concerned when Edmonton is left out of lists, but its lack of inclusion in this particular set of data maps is actually baffling.
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See Wpg/Hamilton for reference.
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  #30  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 7:42 PM
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^ I'd rather see real data, but thanks for trying to be helpful.
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  #31  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 7:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
It's important to remember these are maps of relative income within the CMA against its average. Calgary's average is almost $20,000 more than than many of the others, so the relatively poor here may be more average in the Canadian average.
Agreed, it is quite misleading. For example.

Very low in Montreal is ~$13,600 to ~$25,000.

Very low in Calgary is ~$29,600 to ~$38,000.

Middle income in Montreal is ~$33,300 to ~$50,000.

Middle income in Calgary is ~$50,000 to ~75,000.


Another point in regards to Richmond, (and Surrey for that matter) is for individual income they would do poorly, but for household income they would likely fair better, as the demographics that live in those places typically live in larger households.
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  #32  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 10:17 PM
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Why do you say this? I see lots of blue areas in the city, and some of the red areas are industrial parks and the east-end refineries.
I said so because Montreal, from what I saw, had the lowest average per capita income of all those cities.


Montreal: $41 597,
Winnipeg: $42 033,
Vancouver: $43 101
Halifax: 44 106,
Hamilton: $45 512,
Toronto: $46 666,
Ottawa: $50 592,
Calgary: $63 322,
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  #33  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
No, low income.

Most of the Chinese nouveau riche live on the west side of the City of Vancouver, and also in West Vancouver on the hills.

The central part of Richmond has a lot of cheap apartments, and then middle income Chinese people living in new condo developments that aren't necessarily as wealthy as people make them out to be.
It's weird, "poor" Richmond (where I recently stayed for about a week, at the Sheraton right on Westminster Hwy near Richmond's urban core) looked nicer and more vibrant to me than some of the middle or even upper income areas in Winnipeg.

Some areas just don't show this stuff as readily, I suppose.

EDIT: I guess there is that relativity factor too as noted in the posts just before mine.
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  #34  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
It's weird, "poor" Richmond (where I recently stayed for about a week, at the Sheraton right on Westminster Hwy near Richmond's urban core) looked nicer and more vibrant to me than some of the middle or even upper income areas in Winnipeg.

Some areas just don't show this stuff as readily, I suppose.

EDIT: I guess there is that relativity factor too as noted in the posts just before mine.
A lot of it would depend on how closely census tracts track actual areas of wealth. For example, in Winnipeg wealth tends to be strung out along the rivers, in many cases (almost everywhere but in Tuxedo and, to a lesser extent, River Heights). Some of the wealthiest areas in the city were a block or two from where I grew up in St. Vital but they are submerged in our larger middle class neighbourhood and don't show at all on the map. In Toronto, there isn't much of that -- rivers and shorelines barely influence neighbourhood development and wealthy areas were developed in convenient census-sized blocks (more like Tuxedo in Winnipeg).

Also, if you have a bunch of students, public housing, a trailer park or a big retirement home somewhere in a census district, it would presumably skew the averages as compared to a nearly identical district that lacks such things. Maybe it is something like that which leads to the odd result of Norwood being allegedly on a higher plane of income than Riverview in Winnipeg. Prestige-wise, I would have put those two neighbouring districts in the opposite order.
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  #35  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2015, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by KPELLY View Post
Another point in regards to Richmond, (and Surrey for that matter) is for individual income they would do poorly, but for household income they would likely fair better, as the demographics that live in those places typically live in larger households.
As mentioned, you have to understand the dynamics of the area. Some areas have low incomes, but those incomes stats do not take into consideration families where the main earner is working in another country and sends money to Canada.

You see this in Scarborough, where some areas have this going on. So areas with $600,000 houses have poverty level incomes. But it is because many are working in Asia and send money to Toronto for the family members living here.

I am very cautious with these numbers and other studies like this, because they tend to paint whole areas as poverty stricken, when they are not. My own area is listed as "low income", despite the fact that the average family income is over $100,000 in my area.
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  #36  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2015, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
As mentioned, you have to understand the dynamics of the area. Some areas have low incomes. But those incomes stats do not take into consideration families where the main earner is working in another country and sends money to Canada.

You see this in Scarborough, where some areas have this going on. So areas with $600,000 houses have poverty level incomes. But it is because many are working in Asia and send money to Toronto for the family members living here.
That's a very interesting point. The reality of what's going on in this great experiment of a city is pretty interesting, but not many people are paying attention. I think a lot of policy makers and commentators are oblivious to what's actually happening anywhere that's more than a mile or two away from Yonge or Bloor-Danforth.
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  #37  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2015, 12:36 AM
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Here you can look up census tract incomes for Toronto (not exact but as a % of the CMA income), though the Beaches and much of the east end is cut off.

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hal...-t-expert.html

Tract 86 (North Rosedale) has an average income of about $325K, the highest in the country.
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  #38  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2015, 2:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
That's a very interesting point. The reality of what's going on in this great experiment of a city is pretty interesting, but not many people are paying attention. I think a lot of policy makers and commentators are oblivious to what's actually happening anywhere that's more than a mile or two away from Yonge or Bloor-Danforth.
These maps also do not show the extreme mix going on in many parts of Toronto. Most of Toronto's inner suburbs were developed under the METRO Toronto government planning policies, which did an outstanding job of mixing incomes.
The result is you have people of all incomes living next to each other, however it brings down the average income.
That UofT study is another study which I am cautious with, because they list certain areas as poverty stricken, when they are not.
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  #39  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2015, 3:00 AM
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
That UofT study is another study which I am cautious with, because they list certain areas as poverty stricken, when they are not.
Do they actually call these areas "poverty stricken" or just report the average income by CT?
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  #40  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2015, 5:59 AM
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Surprising that Vancouver's proportion of dark red is 2nd least, only behind Halifax, which has none. Goes against the gap-between-rich-and-poor narrative.

The red part of Richmond where it's wrapped by the yellow to the west is actually the wealthiest part. The yellow region is actually less wealthy, but also less Asian (so data propped up by local incomes). The average house in Richmond is $1.27 million. In before cornholio/whatnext says "money laundering"
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