Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Hackslack]

Build a 40,000 seat stadium, but design it in a way that ~ 10K - 15K can be sectioned off such that it does not seem like seats are just being hidden due to lack of attendance. Almost in a fashion that a retractable screen (like a retractable wall) can be used to block the sections, instead of tarps over seats or drapes like BC has. Large screens that completely shut out sections of the stadium would enhance the fan experience, make the stadium more closed in, and enhance noise levels within. Then for Grey Cups, or even Labour Day classics, simply just retract the screens to increase the seating capacity. That way extra seats would not need to be added, they are already there.

There must be a way to do that.

[Oilkountry]

Domed stadiums aren't caves anymore. translucent ceilings make a huge difference



But why are we even talking about that? Halifax is talking about 140M stadium. Theirs a chance of covered seating but good luck with a domed stadium

The TD place revitalization cost a rumored 90M. Lets say the new south side stands ate up 65M of that cost, The other 25 to revamp the north stands, Jumbotron, turf ect.

So you build a 65M stand in Halifax similar to south side TD, Clone it on the other side without the luxury boxes, player facilities ect. Just concession and washrooms. 45M?? So you're at 110M before you have put turf, scoreboard ect. That really doesn't leave much room for any cover.

I think at the end of the day you're gonna see a tim hortons feild/TD place with less bells and whistles

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I think at the end of the day you're gonna see a tim hortons feild/TD place with less bells and whistles

You are going to see that but I've been advocating all along that is the wrong tack. It should never be viewed as a CFL or football stadium. They may be the most "glamorous" tenants but in the end with or without the team it is a public facility.

If the team doesn't make it then what? Without a winter bubble that building won't be of much use through much of the year. Regina was originally looking at a roofed stadium, I believe the figure was 100 million for the roof and 280 million for the stadium at 33.5k seats.

It won't happen, but IMO the best and long term cost effective decision would be to spend more and get an indoor stadium at a small size 22k. I'm pretty sure the technology is there to make indoor stadiums seem more "outdoors" transparent coverings, vents/louvers and the like.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Build a 40,000 seat stadium, but design it in a way that ~ 10K - 15K can be sectioned off such that it does not seem like seats are just being hidden due to lack of attendance. Almost in a fashion that a retractable screen (like a retractable wall) can be used to block the sections, instead of tarps over seats or drapes like BC has. Large screens that completely shut out sections of the stadium would enhance the fan experience, make the stadium more closed in, and enhance noise levels within. Then for Grey Cups, or even Labour Day classics, simply just retract the screens to increase the seating capacity. That way extra seats would not need to be added, they are already there.

There must be a way to do that.

Why would someone build a permanent 40K that they would have to near-permanently tarp when they could build a 20K/25K and add 10K-15K temporary seats to once every decade?

[someone123]

I don't have strong feelings about it one way or the other but a covered-yet-not-fully-enclosed stadium seems to offer most of the benefit at a small portion of the cost. And it would actually be nicer most of the time when big events and games happen during the April-November "season". The cold time of year when you want to be inside is only about 3 months around mid December-March.

A retractable roof would be the best of both worlds but would be too expensive.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by elly63

You are going to see that but I've been advocating all along that is the wrong tack. It should never be viewed as a CFL or football stadium. They may be the most "glamorous" tenants but in the end with or without the team it is a public facility.

If the team doesn't make it then what? Without a winter bubble that building won't be of much use through much of the year. Regina was originally looking at a roofed stadium, I believe the figure was 100 million for the roof and 280 million for the stadium at 33.5k seats.

It won't happen, but IMO the best and long term cost effective decision would be to spend more and get an indoor stadium at a small size 22k. I'm pretty sure the technology is there to make indoor stadiums seem more "outdoors" transparent coverings, vents/louvers and the like.

Well said, I do agree that the covered roof/canopy would benefit the community in the long run. These stadiums are once every 60-100 year project. Build it as an asset. But if they want to go with more of a BMO style project in stages I can understand it. That may be the difference in getting it built and not i don't think the schooners group have much leverage to ask for an IGF or Mosiac. Certainly nothing better completely

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

i don't think the schooners group have much leverage to ask for an IGF or Mosiac.

That is what I am saying though, is that the city should take charge and build a public facility for the public to use, year round, for the next 30? years.

Most people seemed to hate the early design of the proposed Calgary Fieldhouse but did they hate the concept, that is the idea of a modern multisport complex built with ideas (architecturally and otherwise) from 2020 and not 1980?

[Andy6]

I would think that there is absolutely zero chance that Halifax would build a fancy domed stadium. We should just count ourselves lucky if they build a plain 22,000 seat outdoor stadium with some covered areas for the fans and that there will be a new CFL team as a result. The public doesn't need a 20,000+ seat indoor facility year-round, much less to pay the expenses that go with one.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I would think that there is absolutely zero chance that Halifax would build a fancy domed stadium. We should just count ourselves lucky if they build a plain 22,000 seat outdoor stadium with some covered areas for the fans and that there will be a new CFL team as a result. The public doesn't need a 20,000+ seat indoor facility year-round, much less to pay the expenses that go with one.

And they need a 22k stadium for limited year round use? People I am not talking about a fancy domed stadium, I am talking about thinking a little out of the box and spending maybe 300 million (maybe less) for something that will be a helluva lot more use.

I'm trying to remember the Calgary fieldhouse numbers. Was it 250 million for 30k seats?

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Why would someone build a permanent 40K that they would have to near-permanently tarp when they could build a 20K/25K and add 10K-15K temporary seats to once every decade?

Simply because you wouldn’t have to add 10k-15k for special events, and the stadium would be easily expanded (or opened) whenever demand requires. All the while allowing for a more intimate atmosphere with the seats not exposed.

Think of it along the lines of B.C. Place, though not on the same scale, and with a way better system of hiding the unused seats.

It wouldn’t just be for GC either. Calgary could use an extra few thousand 3-4 times during the football season where there may be enough demand which allows... LDC, Rider game, home playoff game. Not to mention for other entertainment events.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Simply because you wouldn’t have to add 10k-15k for special events, and the stadium would be easily expanded (or opened) whenever demand requires. All the while allowing for a more intimate atmosphere with the seats not exposed.

The additional cost of 10-15K permanent seats is going to be much higher than renting the occasional temp stands once every few years.

Tarping seats doesn't create a more intimate atmosphere in any stadium aside from BC Place, and even then you're still cognizant that there's 30K seats not being used for whatever event you're there for.

Which arena is more intimate: MTS Place in Winnipeg or CTC in Ottawa?

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Think of it along the lines of B.C. Place, though not on the same scale, and with a way better system of hiding the unused seats.

When was the last time BC Place actually sold out? The 2015 Women's World Cup?

Either way, you're still building seats that you never use 90% of the time.

Originally Posted by Hackslack

It wouldn’t just be for GC either. Calgary could use an extra few thousand 3-4 times during the football season where there may be enough demand which allows... LDC, Rider game, home playoff game. Not to mention for other entertainment events.

As others have mentioned Calgary hasn't had that demand in roughly a decade. Calgary haven't sold out McMahon (at 35,400) for a regular season or playoff game since 2015. At this point they'd be better off with a 30K stadium that they should be able to fill a couple times a year.

Generally speaking it's far more enticing to have fewer seats at a higher price point than more seats at a lower price point. General supply and demand is going to work better in ones favour if the seats are consistently sold than not. And it always looks better when seats are full than not.

[Hackslack]

Ok... then build a stadium with total seats of $35k, with $10k of those seats that can be “hidden”, by a much better system than what’s at BC Place. That way the intimate $25k stadium used regular games, and an extrav$10k can be readily available for bigger games, like the GC or LDC or any time the Riders role in.

Point being is build a larger stadium that can intimately hide seats to create a better atmosphere, that can be readily expanded.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Ok... then build a stadium with total seats of $35k, with $10k of those seats that can be “hidden”, by a much better system than what’s at BC Place. That way the intimate $25k stadium used regular games, and an extrav$10k can be readily available for bigger games, like the GC or LDC or any time the Riders role in.

Point being is build a larger stadium that can intimately hide seats to create a better atmosphere, that can be readily expanded.

That sounds like a pricey proposition for a city of less than half a million people.

Halifax should work on the basics first.

Sure, all these features sound nice, but the biggest obstacle will be cost. Keeping cost down will help with the acceptance factor.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Ok... then build a stadium with total seats of $35k, with $10k of those seats that can be “hidden”, by a much better system than what’s at BC Place. That way the intimate $25k stadium used regular games, and an extrav$10k can be readily available for bigger games, like the GC or LDC or any time the Riders role in.

Point being is build a larger stadium that can intimately hide seats to create a better atmosphere, that can be readily expanded.

The conventional wisdom with stadiums is to build no more than the seats than you absolutely need, because the last seat you build will be a) the most expensive one from a construction standpoint, b) the least-frequently used, and c) the one that generates the lowest revenue, as nosebleed seats tend to do.

Factor in what JHikka said about the scarcity factor from a marketing standpoint, and it really makes no sense to build a facility that is bigger than what is immediately necessary.

[Hackslack]

I understand the logic of building a sstadium with seats that are immediately needed, pure and simple supply and demand. For game 3 of the season, only 25k is really needed, but come LDC, 35k is needed, and this coming Grey Chp, 40k will he needed. So do you only build a stadium to meet the need for games those which don’t rwquire the extra seats, or do you at least build it in a way that allows a for increased attendance with ease, all the while building it in a way that keeps the atmosphere intimate and exciting and loud, instead of simply tarring off sections like B.C., Edmonton, TO... all I’m saying is there needs to be some ingenuity in designing and building stadiums that allows for rapid increase in capacity while keeping the stadium exciting and loud when its at reduced capacity.

Think of BMO, it’s be ideal for a system installed to completely block out the 2nd tier of the east side, and enclose the stadium, instead of simply just putting tarps over it.

I’m more ape speaking in terms of the stampeders and not necessarily the Schooners who have a much stricter budget.

[osmo]

I don't actually believe the "need" of so many extra seats for Grey Cups when in many years the game hasn't even sold out. In my view you're better off offering a premium experience for 25K fand for an expensive price point versus trying to gouge 40-50k. The trend is to offer elements experiences to those that can afford it. Grey Cup has been struggling to hit that trend as they just continue to price high on a large catchment of seats that squeeze out a chunk of fans and this resulting in unsold seats.

[Stainless]

Originally Posted by elly63

I'd tend to agree with that but why are we hung up on that 20k figure, it'll never get better? A large number of people said Ottawa football would be impossible to resurrect and yet it happened. At one point the Saskatchewan Roughriders were trading season tickets for grain and since they have built the best stadium in Canada, better than Montreal better than Toronto. Sometimes things get better.

I don't think it's a matter of this being a down time with an inevitable upswing coming. Overall, the CFL is relatively healthy. The winds have changed overall.

Leagues everywhere are reconsidering the raw capacity of stadiums, or at least holding the line when building new. Several factors are making it tougher for anyone to fill seats. That's why most new stadiums focus on the extended "experience" rather than just offering a nice place to watch the game.

A large part of that is making it feel like the hip place to be. Everyone likes being a part of an exclusive club, and building a stadium that is sized to ride the edge of scarcity does that. I'd bet that part of Ottawa's quickly resurgent CFL cachet comes from the fact that the stadium is small and typically full. Manufactured scarcity is a successful marketing strategy in any number of industries.

On the other hand, sitting alone in a row in a cavernous Commonwealth or BC Place does the exact opposite. That is not hip, especially for young people, and the overall atmosphere takes a hit. Maybe that mattered less in 1990 or whatever, because the broadcast coverage couldn't touch the live experience. But, now we have 70-inch TVs with pore-level resolution, Spidercams hovering overhead, and CGI-assisted 360 degree views. The world has changed, and it's not enough to put a good product on the field at a reasonable price. Calgary might be the best current example of that.

I really hope that Halifax lands on a "nice" 20,000 seat stadium rather than a basic 25,000 or 30,000. Make it the hot ticket in town, rather than something that comes for free with your pizza order. Add on later, if need and finances agree.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by osmo

I don't actually believe the "need" of so many extra seats for Grey Cups when in many years the game hasn't even sold out. In my view you're better off offering a premium experience for 25K fand for an expensive price point versus trying to gouge 40-50k. The trend is to offer elements experiences to those that can afford it. Grey Cup has been struggling to hit that trend as they just continue to price high on a large catchment of seats that squeeze out a chunk of fans and this resulting in unsold seats.

I don't think that is too much of an issue, they learned their lesson after the Toronto fiasco and contrary to your statement, three (Edm, Wpg, Ott) of the last four GCs (excluding Toronto) have sold out. Before that BC was 1500 or so short in the big stadium.

[blueandgoldguy]

BC Place would have had 7-10,000 empty seats if it weren't for massive giveaways and huge discounts. They overpriced upper deck seats so that is something that may be corrected for their next Grey Cup.

It certainly doesn't sound promising for this stadium in Halifax. Underwhelming season ticket drive, broken promises from camp Leblanc, no concrete details of private contributions to this project which is not surprising. Overall, I expect this stadium project fizzle out by the summer.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Stainless

I really hope that Halifax lands on a "nice" 20,000 seat stadium rather than a basic 25,000 or 30,000.

I've been advocating that all along