Denver Union Station & FasTracks

[ProTram]

Why is it that the non-FRA compliant DMU's are so cool looking and that the FRA compliant ones are horrid?

[SnyderBock]

Hmm, well actually there is currently only one FRA-compliant DMU in existence. it's the FRA-compliant Colorado Railcar DMU. Colorado Railcar went bankrupt and recently sold the rights to it's FRA-compliant DMU to a new company, which hopes to put it on the market. Other railcar manufactures have FRA-compliant DMU's they are designing, but none have yet been certified as compliant.

It's important to note that the rail lines we are talking about (east to airport, west to Arvada/Golden & NW to 72nd street) will be electrified. These will be EMU and RTD has the full rights to it's ROW. Depending on how the winning bidder for this PPP designs it, it may be possible for them to design it to use non-compliant EMU's. They might also opt for FRA-compliant EMU's; only time will tell. We should know more by summer.

[Octavian]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

Hmm, well actually there is currently only one FRA-compliant DMU in existence. it's the FRA-compliant Colorado Railcar DMU. Colorado Railcar went bankrupt and recently sold the rights to it's FRA-compliant DMU to a new company, which hopes to put it on the market. Other railcar manufactures have FRA-compliant DMU's they are designing, but none have yet been certified as compliant.

It's important to note that the rail lines we are talking about (east to airport, west to Arvada/Golden & NW to 72nd street) will be electrified. These will be EMU and RTD has the full rights to it's ROW. Depending on how the winning bidder for this PPP designs it, it may be possible for them to design it to use non-compliant EMU's. They might also opt for FRA-compliant EMU's; only time will tell. We should know more by summer.

Pretty sure RTD has to use a FRA compliant vehicle because there are some areas where they use freight rail ROW.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by ProTram

Why is it that the non-FRA compliant DMU's are so cool looking and that the FRA compliant ones are horrid?

Not sure, I'm often quick to blame the taste levels of those in charge at American transit systems, but my latest laymen's assumption is that maybe the rolling stock manufacturers' bid is gobbled up by R&D costs to engineer an FRA compliant vehicle and any existing funds to use a talented industrial designer to style the traincar are evaporated.

[Octavian]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Not sure, I'm often quick to blame the taste levels of those in charge at American transit systems, but my latest laymen's assumption is that maybe the rolling stock manufacturers' bid is gobbled up by R&D costs to engineer an FRA compliant vehicle and any existing funds to use a talented industrial designer to style the traincar are evaporated.

It's because the way the FRA rules are written, the trains have to be very heavy and designed like a tank.

[Busy Bee]

Octavian, were not talking about the weight of the railcar and the structure of the frame. The issue here is why does it seem that most American rolling stock doesn't get near as attractive cosmetic styling as its' European and Asian counterparts. I don't believe it has to do directly with FRA requirements physically preventing good design/styling.

Like I said I think its more of an issue of budget and the lack of image conscienceness amongst American transport operators. Lets face it, transport in Europe and Asia is designed to impress for the most part with a great deal of detail orientedness and pride amongst public (sometimes private) operators. I think American agencies have been so overwhelmed by bare bones funding and lack of political consensus that details like rolling stock design gets treated like an afterthought, add that with the unfortunate belief of mine that most Americans are less design savvy (maybe this is improving though) and transport agencies don't feel a great need to "show off" in the style arena and also own a misguided fear that such attention to "frivolousness" will put them in the hot seat with the public debate over tax dollars and highway vs. transit spending.

[SnyderBock]

Americans as a whole are composed of people from all around earth and thus are no different than any other group of people on earth. So as a whole, Americans are neither more or less design savvy than anyone else. but I do agree that American transit agencies care little about looks when compared to how they care about lowest overall cost. However, I do think that more aerodynamic designs would use less energy and thus cost less. Perhaps they are not accurately projecting cost saving from aerodynamic designs, or perhaps manufactures are over-charging for the more aerodynamic designs and thus rendering the cost savings nullified.

[BrennanW]

I'm not sure that transit agencies are less savvy about sexiness. Siemens new LRV's are both sexy and popular with the agencies. I think it all comes down to the weight issue: Its hard to make a train that is built like a tank look like a coupe.

[Busy Bee]

^I don't believe that one bit. I simply think the reason most US transit operators have ugly equipment is because they don't ask for "sexy" equipment and they don't expect it from their already high $$$ FRA compliant custom order from a foreign train manufacturer—or even think about it for that matter. And maybe in the cases they do, the soul stripping committee process isn't willing to pay for it—as they are already weighed down with "loftier" concerns.


Case in point, the "new" Metra Electric District EMU's in Chicago:



link

Brand new, based on FIFTY year old design. You can't convince me that one ounce of creativity went into this design and the reason being because Metra didn't ask them to. This is the extent of their "styling" expectations, this is the extent of their vision. These new traincars are even a regression from the former Illinois Central 'Highliner' EMU's they are replacing.


Now compare to new EMU's for Helsinki, Finland:


link

Do I honestly believe, that even with FRA compliancy, that they could not have engineered and designed an traincar as sleek and modern as this? No.

[Nexis4Jersey]

The FRA rules have nothing to do with the shape , just the weight, but many US Transit Agencies go for the cheaper ugly looking trains.

[Octavian]

Instead of speculating, here are a few links for your reading pleasure. The Austin vehicle does not appear to be FRA compliant.

Good presentation on the Dallas and Austin systems and FRA compliance:

http://www.nctcog.org/trans/spd/tran...esentation.pdf

http://www.trainweb.org/ultradomes/dmu/compliance.html

http://capmetroblog.com/2008/09/26/u...egulatory-web/

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewt...t&sd=a&start=0

[BrennanW]

I think that all of the different corridors have time-separated service from freight (or they just run on their own ROW). Thus, RTD might opt for a non-compliant DLRV-type vehicle like Austin's or Denton's commuter train. I do think the RTD people were set on the Colorado Railcar DMU.

However, I think the Siemens FRA-compliant DMU looks pretty much the same, and somewhat good-looking at the same time. I'd be happy to visit Denver and spend an afternoon on one (However, I also happen to enjoy Metra's Bi-levels too.)

[SnyderBock]

The East Corridor, North Corridor, Gold Corridor and now also the Northwest Corridor up to 71st Street are all EMU. Union Pacific and BNSF will not run freight rail under electrified tracks. All these EMU lines will be on their own exclusive ROW.

The Northwest Corridor from 71st Street onward to Boulder and Longmont will be DMU and will run on freight rail, but with full time separation. DMU's will run from morning to evening, as late as 1:00am. Freight rail will run after 1:00am. They have already agreed to this time separated service.

Have any of you watched Sprawling From Grace: The Consequences of Suburbanization? if you have Netflix, it's available to watch streaming:
http://www.netflix.com/WiMovie/Spraw...tion/70115486?

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

Union Pacific and BNSF will not run freight rail under electrified tracks.

I'm all about dedicated ROW, but Union Pacific's position on this is particularly amusing because they actively tested electric operation in the west in the mid-70's. Why they would have a policy like this is beyond me. And BNSF, as we know, has recently shown interest in electrification—so go figure.

[SnyderBock]

The West Corridor LRT construction is beginning to make significant progress. The bridge work is nearing completion and it won't be long before they begin laying track. I'll post an excellent flicker photo slide show with helpful captions to explain what your looking at...

Here is a photo update posted at Kevin Flynn's Inside Lane:

Click Here To View The Flickr Slideshow!
Click "Show Info" to view the caption details of each photo

By Kevin Flynn
Inside-Lane.com

With warmer weather to help it along, construction progress on the West Corridor light rail project is ramping up on all three areas into which it’s been divided.

The work may be most visible along the Sixth Avenue Freeway, where a dramatic steel arch bridge will be rolled out over the roadway during a full weekend closure in two weeks and a long curving bridge is winding its way over the Indiana Street interchange. Denver Transit Construction Group and its major subcontractors have almost all of the bridge structures underway.

RTD’s West Corridor is the first new FasTracks rail corridor to go to full construction....

Read full article here at Inside Lane

[BrennanW]

I saw that ginormous viaduct under construction last weekend - man is that impressive. I can only assume they are ahead of schedule, or are they just planning on a bunch of time for testing like they did with the Southeast corridor? It would be really nice to have a new Denver transit line opening in 2011-2012 instead of 2013.

Also, the underground bus terminal at Union Station really looks like its coming along quickly. Crews really have gotten quite a big hole dug fast.

Do you know why they are the extending platforms at the current Auraria West Station if it is going to be replaced by West Corridor?

[SnyderBock]

Denver Infill Blog seems to be the best place to keep up to date on the latest Denver Union Station construction progress.
Please be sure to go there and follow the updates regularly. Here are some photo updates of the Union Station construction site,
which were taken by Denver Infill contributer Rick:

http://denverinfill.com/blog/

03-31-10
LRT Terminal Work:


04-01-10
Regional Bus Terminal Work:


Now that's one heck of a view^, ain't it? It's going to be exciting to watch the Denver Union Station construction progress,
from this vantage point! Click here to view all Denver Infill Blog posts by Rick.

[northbay]

^ the denver union construction site is impressive.

as for the 'sexiness' of fra-compliant dmus:

the sonoma-marin area rail transit project will connect sonoma and marin counties to a ferry terminal to san francisco. the commuter rail project will use fra-compliant dmus and they have issued a draft of technical specifications. (http://www.sonomamarintrain.org/, the website btw shows a colorado railcar with a different front copy and pasted).

Originally Posted by the press democrat

Directors of the Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit system on Wednesday chose the heavier American-style rail car over its European counterpart, but promised it would be every bit as quiet, comfortable and sleek.

“It’s not only got to look cool, it has to ride well and be a good neighbor,” said Charles McGlashan, a Marin County supervisor and SMART chairman.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article...CLES/907159862

whether they WILL be sleek or not, we'll have to see.

[SnyderBock]

Rick (contributor at DenverInfill.com/blog) has linked a jobsitevisitor.com page for Denver Union Station!

Here are two more photo updates posted by Rick at Denver Infill Blog, taken in April 11th:

[BrennanW]

FYI, RTD will not be asking for a tax increase this year, citing the economy. I think I'm going to yank out all of my hair if this takes until 2042 to complete.

http://www3.rtd-denver.com/elbert/news/index.cfm?id=732