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  #6921  
Old Posted Yesterday, 11:29 PM
Obadno Obadno is online now
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Originally Posted by combusean View Post
If central city residents vote for the train and North Phoenix residents successfully cut it out, that's about the best reason I've ever seen to split Phoenix in half.
Density would skyrocket but we’d go from the 5th biggest city to like the 10th biggest
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  #6922  
Old Posted Today, 3:33 PM
Mr.RE Mr.RE is online now
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Density would skyrocket but we’d go from the 5th biggest city to like the 10th biggest
I was thinking the same. If the light rail expansion ends, then I would imagine we would see higher density and more mixed use along more central parts of the light rail as opposed to spreading it around the city. I guess for those that like to see more development along the light rail in cities like Tempe, Downtown and Midtown phoenix would get just that if this creates a scarcity of transportation. (btw I am 100% in favor of the light rail)
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  #6923  
Old Posted Today, 4:36 PM
azsunsurfer azsunsurfer is offline
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I really think we need to end the light rail and if we must spend money on mass transit I would say it needs to be a mixture of BRT lines, street cars (in areas that are already dense or increasing density that the light rail can't service or offer that last mile ride) and commuter rail (doesn't make sense to drag the lightrail out to the suburbs if this is the type of transit those folks would take to begin with).
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  #6924  
Old Posted Today, 4:37 PM
Obadno Obadno is online now
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Originally Posted by azsunsurfer View Post
I really think we need to end the light rail and if we must spend money on mass transit I would say it needs to be a mixture of BRT lines, street cars (in areas that are already dense or increasing density that the light rail can't service or offer that last mile ride) and commuter rail (doesn't make sense to drag the lightrail out to the suburbs if this is the type of transit those folks would take to begin with).
If people aren’t into light rail how are you going to capture the imagination on a bus?

People already say “why not just spend more on busses” now you want to try to convince them to have an expensive bus when a normal bus will do?
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  #6925  
Old Posted Today, 4:52 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is online now
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I travel a lot and almost never rent a car. I have spent considerable time in various really big cities and use public transport quite a bit. I hate getting on busses, even good ones. They're slow and they are subject to the ebb and flow of traffic. Unfortunately Phoenix built a rail system that's just an incremental upgrade from a bus so the difference here would probably be hard to see. In cities with subways and elevated rail a bus just feels like a crappy way to get around.
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  #6926  
Old Posted Today, 4:58 PM
azsunsurfer azsunsurfer is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
I travel a lot and almost never rent a car. I have spent considerable time in various really big cities and use public transport quite a bit. I hate getting on busses, even good ones. They're slow and they are subject to the ebb and flow of traffic. Unfortunately Phoenix built a rail system that's just an incremental upgrade from a bus so the difference here would probably be hard to see. In cities with subways and elevated rail a bus just feels like a crappy way to get around.
As a fellow experienced traveler....what reason would you have to take a light rail line from Phoenix to Peoria or PV Mall? What can you not access along the existing light rail line now? The only argument I am open for regards to an extension is to ASU West/ GCU/ Maybe Glendale...
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  #6927  
Old Posted Today, 5:14 PM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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Buses aren't the answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
I travel a lot and almost never rent a car. I have spent considerable time in various really big cities and use public transport quite a bit. I hate getting on busses, even good ones. They're slow and they are subject to the ebb and flow of traffic. Unfortunately Phoenix built a rail system that's just an incremental upgrade from a bus so the difference here would probably be hard to see. In cities with subways and elevated rail a bus just feels like a crappy way to get around.
There will never be an investment in public transit until the stigmatizing logic of the anti-rail rhetoric is challenged and defeated. The logic is that *fill in the blank* is too expensive and not worth it for the dirty, dirty people. On other social media, the anti-rail folks talk about rats and homelessness, as if light rail created these things. Buses are offered as a cheaper alternative. In Albuquerque, the rapid transit buses were subject to the same bellyaching. Same with commuter rail. Nothing that costs anything but the bare minimum escapes this condescension. There is less complaint for Tempe's streetcar because Tempe has basically crushed this bad logic. Lowering our sights isn't the answer. In the larger scheme, light rail is a pittance, and should be a part of a comprehensive strategy. There should be light rail, commuter rail, buses, single-occupant cars, robust pedestrian options, and protected bicycle paths with bicycle infrastructure.

What gets unchallenged pretty much everywhere in America is the MASSIVE subsidy of highways and car culture. It's both killing us and bankrupting us, and nobody actually discusses the massive and comprehensive subsidies for this.

If Prop 105 passes, I really, really, REALLY hope we vote to cancel the infrastructure taxes, and start a discussion about what these roads cost. I would also love to see the businesses in South Phoenix who were played languish (I know the I've written down the names of the parties involved, and will take any opportunity to spread the news of just how terrible they are as establishments). It's absolutely criminal that the state supreme court allowed this to get on the ballot in the first place.
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  #6928  
Old Posted Today, 5:19 PM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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Originally Posted by azsunsurfer View Post
As a fellow experienced traveler....what reason would you have to take a light rail line from Phoenix to Peoria or PV Mall? What can you not access along the existing light rail line now? The only argument I am open for regards to an extension is to ASU West/ GCU/ Maybe Glendale...
ASU West, ASU Poly (Gateway), and the Glendale sports complex were supposed to be the terminuses of the light rail. Glendale overspent on what increasingly looks like it will be abandoned sports arenas, and isn't willing to connect them to rail.

Beyond that, Peoria is opening up trails, and the Northwest Valley really needs to work on density. A light rail line would help the cities up there plan to where these corridors might be. I suspect that the political powers don't want to give up their power base by allowing more density. It's hard to get elected as right-wingers when the density increases.

I'm mystified why more in the Scottsdale/PV area don't want defined corridors. They can get more people to their amenities, and then send folks away after they have sold them overpriced goods, food, and drinks. It increases the volume of traffic without having to build the parking lots, or deal with the increased congestion and traffic accidents.
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  #6929  
Old Posted Today, 6:23 PM
azsunsurfer azsunsurfer is offline
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Originally Posted by DesertRay View Post
ASU West, ASU Poly (Gateway), and the Glendale sports complex were supposed to be the terminuses of the light rail. Glendale overspent on what increasingly looks like it will be abandoned sports arenas, and isn't willing to connect them to rail.

Beyond that, Peoria is opening up trails, and the Northwest Valley really needs to work on density. A light rail line would help the cities up there plan to where these corridors might be. I suspect that the political powers don't want to give up their power base by allowing more density. It's hard to get elected as right-wingers when the density increases.

I'm mystified why more in the Scottsdale/PV area don't want defined corridors. They can get more people to their amenities, and then send folks away after they have sold them overpriced goods, food, and drinks. It increases the volume of traffic without having to build the parking lots, or deal with the increased congestion and traffic accidents.
You and I couldn't be further apart politically but your points are valid. We need an all of the above approach where it makes sense. I just say we really need to focus on the core and let the commuter rail/ bus lines focus on the outer suburbs. Yes I do agree too we need a better understanding of the road maintenance costs in this town! Why is it that so many of the roads are in disrepair and how can the City better plan for their maintenance.
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  #6930  
Old Posted Today, 6:33 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azsunsurfer View Post
As a fellow experienced traveler....what reason would you have to take a light rail line from Phoenix to Peoria or PV Mall? What can you not access along the existing light rail line now? The only argument I am open for regards to an extension is to ASU West/ GCU/ Maybe Glendale...
I wouldn't have a reason. Light rail is not an effective mode of transportation for trips longer than a 5-8 miles in my opinion.

Here's what I learned after a full NBA season of riding public transportation in the past year:

The city bus, in some cases, is faster than the light rail. I got on the bus in front of my house for the first dozen or so games last season, I'd get off at Camelback and switch to the light rail because I assumed it would be quicker. Eventually I decided to just stay on the bus, I found that I arrived much quicker every time. I'm sure part of that is due to the transfer time but I also did notice a few times we were next to a train during the trip and that train would get to Jefferson and 1st Avenue long after my bus arrived.

That obviously is not proof that the bus is faster than rail, but it is a really clear sign that light rail is just not a significant enough upgrade over the bus to make me excited about using it. Light rail in Phoenix just feels like a luxury bus, it's the difference between a coach ticket and business class.

I'm a supporter of light rail and I am a user of light rail, but I think the expansion plans are overzealous. I don't think the lines should spur more than 5-8 miles from the city center. I understand that heavy rail (subways and elevated) is cost prohibitive but I sure do wish we had something better than light rail.
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  #6931  
Old Posted Today, 6:53 PM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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Originally Posted by azsunsurfer View Post
You and I couldn't be further apart politically but your points are valid. We need an all of the above approach where it makes sense. I just say we really need to focus on the core and let the commuter rail/ bus lines focus on the outer suburbs. Yes I do agree too we need a better understanding of the road maintenance costs in this town! Why is it that so many of the roads are in disrepair and how can the City better plan for their maintenance.
I really appreciate your openness and willingness to talk about these issues. I'm all over the place with my personal political opinions (I run my personal life with most boring and conservative principles, and I tend to vote pretty centrist, while I really detest particular strains of either right-wing collectivism--"populism"--and central-ownership of the means of production--either communism or fascism. I err on the "bleeding heart" side with things that I participate in, even if I know that these schemes often don't work).

Anyhoo, roads cost a LOT for upkeep, and Arizona has been kiting this check for a long time. I wish that we could have a more technocratic discussion about what is possible. The incredible buildup around light rail is what makes that modality "work," IMHO. If we could talk about connecting city centers around commuter rail, that would likely help the Valley sell itself as an employment center. HQs could cluster around these centers, and cities could choose the circulators and corridors more thoughtfully. The permanence of rail is a difference maker because investors want to get rid of ambiguity. If you know that there will be a stop x feet away from your place, you might sink a larger chunk of change down that pays out over 20-30 years.

Unfortunately, elections make these long-term plans hard to implement.

Last edited by DesertRay; Today at 7:15 PM.
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  #6932  
Old Posted Today, 6:54 PM
muertecaza muertecaza is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
I wouldn't have a reason. Light rail is not an effective mode of transportation for trips longer than a 5-8 miles in my opinion.

Here's what I learned after a full NBA season of riding public transportation in the past year:

The city bus, in some cases, is faster than the light rail. I got on the bus in front of my house for the first dozen or so games last season, I'd get off at Camelback and switch to the light rail because I assumed it would be quicker. Eventually I decided to just stay on the bus, I found that I arrived much quicker every time. I'm sure part of that is due to the transfer time but I also did notice a few times we were next to a train during the trip and that train would get to Jefferson and 1st Avenue long after my bus arrived.

That obviously is not proof that the bus is faster than rail, but it is a really clear sign that light rail is just not a significant enough upgrade over the bus to make me excited about using it. Light rail in Phoenix just feels like a luxury bus, it's the difference between a coach ticket and business class.
Both light rail and bus definitely suffer from the fact that any transfers inevitably seem to make them take too long if you have any other options. My main use of the light rail is from downtown Tempe to downtown Phoenix, where the places I need to go both happen to be immediately adjacent to stops. If I didn't have those perfect circumstances, I'm sure I would use it less often.

Speed-wise, light rail may just be a "business class bus," but I think that's a problem with all rail-transit, even subways/elevated trains, that's not unique to light rail. It's hard to get firm numbers on average speeds, stops included, but this article, for instance, cites a person's unofficial measurements of various heavy rail systems in large US metros. NYC's subway averages just 17.4 MPH, Chicago's El 22.9 MPH, etc. And even those average speeds are inflated by express routes in both metros--most lines run slower. Valley Metro has officially public facts that put the Light Rail's average speed at a similar 22 MPH, all stops included. A study I dug up shows local bus service averaging 15 mph. Whether the ~7 mph increase, among the other benefits of light rail, justifies light rail is of course going to be a matter of opinion. And by definition the average local bus speed is not going to be true of every route, and your bus trip to games downtown may well be faster than light rail.
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  #6933  
Old Posted Today, 7:18 PM
RonnieFoos RonnieFoos is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
I wouldn't have a reason. Light rail is not an effective mode of transportation for trips longer than a 5-8 miles in my opinion.

Here's what I learned after a full NBA season of riding public transportation in the past year:

The city bus, in some cases, is faster than the light rail. I got on the bus in front of my house for the first dozen or so games last season, I'd get off at Camelback and switch to the light rail because I assumed it would be quicker. Eventually I decided to just stay on the bus, I found that I arrived much quicker every time. I'm sure part of that is due to the transfer time but I also did notice a few times we were next to a train during the trip and that train would get to Jefferson and 1st Avenue long after my bus arrived.

That obviously is not proof that the bus is faster than rail, but it is a really clear sign that light rail is just not a significant enough upgrade over the bus to make me excited about using it. Light rail in Phoenix just feels like a luxury bus, it's the difference between a coach ticket and business class.

I'm a supporter of light rail and I am a user of light rail, but I think the expansion plans are overzealous. I don't think the lines should spur more than 5-8 miles from the city center. I understand that heavy rail (subways and elevated) is cost prohibitive but I sure do wish we had something better than light rail.
I'm sure the time spent transferring from bus to LRT slowed your trip down substantially. With bus, you have a lot more stops on the line, transfer points, hitting the traffic lights and stop signs, road construction, slow traffic, rush hour traffic, people racking their bikes to the front of the bus, operators assisting wheelchair passengers and what not. I recently took a bus to go pick up my new vehicle 2 weeks ago. It took me 2 buses and 45 minutes just to get from 19th Ave and Cactus to Cave Creek/Dunlap. This was a distance of only 3.5 miles. The bus was stopped for 6 minutes alone while the operator assisted a wheelchair bound passenger onto the bus and strapped down the wheelchair (it's law for the wheelchair to be strapped down on a bus).

If I choose to ride the bus to my job at the Financial Center (and I have), it takes well over an hour via bus. It only takes me 25 mins from the Dunlap/19th Ave station on rail (not counting the 7 minutes to drive to the station). If you were going to take the bus to a game, you would still have to deal with all the issues I mentioned above which LRT would not have to deal with. I would be curious about your LRT time if you drove to the Camelback park and ride versus a bus from the same park and ride location?
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  #6934  
Old Posted Today, 7:40 PM
RonnieFoos RonnieFoos is online now
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
Light rail is not an effective mode of transportation for trips longer than a 5-8 miles in my opinion.
I wanted to touch on this a little because I have a funny story to tell. I work with 2 co-workers that take the LRT from Downtown Mesa every day. It takes them roughly about 55 minutes to get to Central/Osborn from Main/Center in Mesa. When they drive, that time goes up to at least an hour and 30 minutes (not too mention the amount of gas they use when they drive). Now granted this is during rush hour and there are times when you probably would want to use a car if you plan on doing other things after work. But this is when LRT matters the most so you are not sitting in a parking lot trying to get to work in the morning or going home. Now any other time of day when traffic is lighter, car is faster (but you are still using a lot of gas for that distance).

Oh yeah, forgot the funny story. Last Wednesday, I was going to Mesa across the street from the LRT station at Dobson and Main. I was driving my car and made a silly quip to my co-worker "Let's see who gets there first". His train beat me there by 10 mins!
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  #6935  
Old Posted Today, 8:30 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is online now
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I understand what you're saying. Take my comments with a grain of salt as I don't work a schedule so therefore I never think about "beating traffic" or any of that. I came into the office at 10am today, spent 90 minutes at lunch and I'm figuring out when I want to go home. For someone like me the light rail is just a different/fun way to get around when I have some time to waste or don't want to pay $50 in uber fees. Definitely for a rush hour commuter I can see things being different.
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  #6936  
Old Posted Today, 8:39 PM
RonnieFoos RonnieFoos is online now
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
I came into the office at 10am today, spent 90 minutes at lunch and I'm figuring out when I want to go home.
Jeez I want to do what you do!
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