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  #261  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2009, 12:01 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Wink Great variation on the Hastings Line idea ! !

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
The benefit of extending the Expo Line is that it decreases turn around time at Waterfront. If the trains traveled through the station instead of turning around at the station, you could achieve better, more efficient throughput. Currently, there is typically a lot of linger time for trains at Waterfront, which sometimes causes them to back up around Granville and Burrard. If the trains were to carry on then that time would not be needed.

As well, there are probably a lot of people who ride Expo Line that would love to ride it the extra station into Gastown. And there would be many riders from Hastings that would like to continue on to Burrard or Granville. Making them switch trains seems like a hassle that is not required if Skytrain technology is used.

Millennium line trains don't turn around at Columbia (usually). But they can turn around at Columbia. A Hastings Extension could be similar. If there are problems along the Expo Line, the trains from Hastings could be turned around at Waterfront, just like what happens at Columbia if there are problems on the Expo Line.

Hastings street is going through quite some growth. All along the street, especially in Burnaby between Boundary and Willingdon, there is a lot of new development. For good or bad, the east side is being gentrified, and buses in the area are becoming more and more busy. Skytrain could be used to spur proper urban growth with TODs right in the heart of the city instead of in the suburbs. The best way to beat urban sprawl is to replace wasted space right in the city with high density.

The corridor (along with Powell) is used by a lot of different bus routes to move East-West to get to their primary North-South route. The Hastings Skytrain would eliminate a lot of buses so that they could run locally with more frequency and connect with Skytrain to take people downtown quickly. Just look at what that would do for the number 20.

At Willingdon, I would have the line turn south and follow Willingdon past Millennium line, past that commercial area, past the Casino and BCIT, and terminate at Metrotown. It would be an amazing North-South Connection through the heart of Burnaby. And it would offer a back door into downtown that people from Metrotown could use if they want to avoid a crowded Expo Line.
That raises a number of pertinent issues, like turnaround time, and possible "logjams" as well as the better restribution of busses.

I'd like to say that I think that the idea of turning the Hastings Line south at Willingdon and linking it to Metrotown is a great !! As you say, it would make a super north-south connection, in a city where, like many others, most lines tend to converge in on the city cetre like spokes on a wheel, at the expense of transverse transportation routes and links.

Having a line as you suggest, that runs "perpendicular" to the others, while both intersecting with them and providing an alternate transport route is
very much in order, especially for a diffuse, sprawling city like Vancouver.

Thank you for the endorsement - and your variation on it.
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  #262  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2009, 12:08 AM
DKaz DKaz is offline
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My ultimate transit fantasy of a loop that goes down Hastings, Willingdon, 41st Ave, Arbutus, and Burrard (and of course the other way around).
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  #263  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2009, 1:32 AM
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After having the hastings line go south through metrotown I think it's be cool if it went through a southern portion of Vancouver to loop back up too and connect with the millenium/evergreen line at UBC.

But then I don't have enough knowledge of the area to suggest a good ROW with either already established density along the route or potential density development.

Edit - Adding onto this post. I had time to kill, so for shits and giggles I drew up this little map of what I see a possible Skytrain system looking like by 2040:





The Dark Blue would be along the same trackage as the current Expo line, and would continue to be called the Expo line. However, it becomes an express line only. The stations where it stops would be super-dense locations or main transfer points, which in this case would be either King George, Surrey Central, or Gateway in Surrey (if Gateway or Surrey Central, a second Surrey Express Station at Guilford could be considered), either Columbia or New West in New Westminster, Metrotown in Burnaby, Broadway/Commercial Drive and Waterfront in Vancouver.

The Gold would be along the same route as the upcoming Millenium Line extension and Evergreen Line. Stops would be on Campus, at the Broadway/City Hall transfer to Canada Line LRT, at the Broadway/Commercial drive Transfer to Expo Line & North Fraser/Millenium Loop, Brentwood Town Center transfer to North Fraser/Millenium loop, Cameron or Burquitlam transfer to Evergreen Loop, and Port Moody or Coquitlam Central with transfer to WCE.

I was considering making it one sole express line that would loop from Waterfront all the way around through Surrey and Coquitlam (following the green line, to be known as Evergreen Loop). If this were to happen, the train would maintain the name Expo Line, and would have an additional stop in Port Moody. The motivation behind that is that the South Frazer Loop (light blue) would benifit from having only one transfer to both UBC and Downtown Vancouver, rather then having to make 2 transfers onto the Evergreen Loop and then onto the Millenium Express to get to UBC, with 3 transfers to get onto the local North Fraser Loop, to be known as Millenium Loop if the Express lines are merged into one (orange line).

The orange coloured line could have any one of several names, but I'll call it North Fraser Loop, is a further extension of the currently known Millenium Line in both directions east from Waterfront and South out of UBC. Leaving Waterfront, it would head east along Hastings until Willingdon Ave. It would turn south along Willingdon, and stops would include a transfer point at Brentwood town Center to the Millenium Express and North Fraser Loop, a stop at BCIT, and probably another stop before the obvious transfer point at Metrotown to the Expo Line and North Fraser Loop. From there it would head west. As I said above I'm not to familiar with South Van, so I just choose an ROE that made sence from google maps. The train would head west along Imperial St. and continue along East 49th Ave. From there it goes north along Knight Street until 41st Ave., and would again head west until Dunbar Street. It turns north once more onto Dunbar, and then west again along West 16th onto the UBC Endowment lands, where it would loop up and around, connecting with currently planned Millenium Line Alignment.

As said above, the name could be changed to Millenium Loop if the two express lines are merged into the one Expo Line.

The green line would be known as the Evergreen Loop, and would follow the same route as the currently planned Evergreen Line and the north/south leg of the Millenium line, aswell as an extension going south through Port Moody, and across the new Port Mann to Surrey. The line wouldn't go through either Columbia or Lougheed stations, so transfers to express lines would have to be done at either one of the downtown Surrey stations, or the Burquitlam/Cameron Stations. Transfer to one of the North Fraser/Millenium Loop trains could either be done at Sapperton or Braid.

The Light Blue Line could be any one of several names, but I'm going to call it the South Fraser Loop. At first the line simply continues from Scott Road Station South. there would be a loop that connects to Skybridge aswell, but I'll get to that later. Going south from Scott Road the train would loop through Delta, eventually making it's way southeast to 56th ave. Again, I'm not to familiar with Delta, so I'll leave it up to you guys to argue the best ROE for the Delta/South Surrey area. From there it heads east with several stops in Cloverdale and Langley (4/5). From there in heads North. I've got three different ROEs laid out that are all vastly different, so I'm def. looking for comments and critisism here. The first line simply turns left on 72nd and eventually B-lines it back up into Surrey along the fraser highway, to reconnect with the Expo and Evergreen at either King George or Guilford. The second option heads east alogn 72nd, then north through to Walnut Grove and Port Kells, and then loops back down across the highway again and heads straight west along 88th until either the Fraser Highway going to King George, or north along 160th to get loop up and over to Guilford. I intentionally avoided the Native reserve and any possible headaches that could cause. The last line option would go through Port Kells and Walnut Grove along same route as option 2, again with 2 or more stations. For sake of Simplicity I just cut line straight through and across the river, when in reality I imagine it would weave around a bit so as to have stops near Colossus and the bridge. From there I don't know exactly where the line woudl cross the river, but after it does it would head east and loop through Maple Ridge, with a transfer point at the WCE stop before heading back weast to Pitt Meadows, across over into Port Coquitlam, and joining up with the Evergreen Loop at the Port Moody WCE Station. The Line would follow the Evergreen Loop through Surrey from there until Scott Road, however there would be trackage to head north along Evergreen (see below).

The express lines would be peak-hour only. Off peak hours the whole system would instead be served by a local train that does a giant loop. The line would start at Waterfront and follow the Expo Line route until it goes through Scott road, where it would take the above mentioned loop and then travel all around the South Fraser Loop into either Surrey or Port Coquitlam, where it would head North to the Millenium Express Line, and follow that route until UBC, where it would again start following the same routing as the North Fraser/Millenium Loop back to Waterfront. Keep in mind this only replacing the Express Line(s) in off-peak hours so as to provide a more convinient, 1 transfer only to most locations, while the Express Line(s) are more intended to get people from point A to point B faster, but with possibly more transfers depending on where you are coming from and where you are going.



The routing I have shown above I expect could be done by 2040.

Small Expo/Millenium Line extensions will be completed in the 2010-2020 timeframe (Expo east from Waterfront to Metrotown and King George to Guilford, Millenium to UBC and Douglas).

The Evergreen Loop and North Fraser/Millenium Loop would be completed in the 2020-2030 timeframe. In addition to the completion of these routes, branch lines that would eventually become the South Fraser Loop would leave Scott Road south into Delta, and East out of Port Coquitlam into Pitt Meadows and Maple Ridge (Once Evergreen Loop is completed). From there B-line buses would go along the rest of the intended ROE to spur densit development to warrant the creation of the rest of the line.

In the 2030-2040 timeframe the South Fraser Loop Line would be completed. Extensions to the size of the platforms along some of the already completed lines would be completed to service the express trains.

All throughout this timeframe new BRT lines would prove the routes that would eventually become the Skytrain Lines I have listed, aswell as feed the already completed lines along with an ever expanding streetcar/LRT network.

After 2040 the improvements to the transit system would be further extensions to train stations from 80 meters to 120 meters, and possibly even 160 meters for the express trainstations if possible. More Light Rail and Street cars would be developed in the low-medium desnity areas to spur development and feed the already established lines.


Something else I want done but failed to include were a South Fraser WCE line that goes through Richmond, Tsawassen, Delta, South Surrey, Langley, Aldergrove, Abottsford & Airport, all the way to Chillowack and possibly Hope. I would also have a WCE line that goes North to West Van, Horseshoe Bay, Saanich, and possibly even Whistler and Pemberton. The North Fraser Line would maintain it's approximate ROE, but get it's own dedicated trackage.

I would also have the HSR which leaves Vancouver and heads directly to the American Border, as the Abbotsford Airport would already be served by the WCE.

What Y'all think? And don't berate me for my diagram. All I have is MSPaint.
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Last edited by Canadian Mind; Aug 13, 2009 at 1:46 AM.
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  #264  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2009, 3:25 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Firstly, it's quite a fantasy and I'm sure all of it will stay as a fantasy. It's quite impossible to implement such a plan, quite ambitious. A lot of the lines (and the configuration of such), I wouldn't see necessary, just because of current commuter service patterns, growth patterns, and cost, but I'm not going to go into detail since this is your fantasy. I'll point out some potential problems:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Mind View Post
The Dark Blue would be along the same trackage as the current Expo line, and would continue to be called the Expo line. However, it becomes an express line only. The stations where it stops would be super-dense locations or main transfer points, which in this case would be either King George, Surrey Central, or Gateway in Surrey (if Gateway or Surrey Central, a second Surrey Express Station at Guilford could be considered), either Columbia or New West in New Westminster, Metrotown in Burnaby, Broadway/Commercial Drive and Waterfront in Vancouver.

The Gold would be along the same route as the upcoming Millenium Line extension and Evergreen Line. Stops would be on Campus, at the Broadway/City Hall transfer to Canada Line LRT, at the Broadway/Commercial drive Transfer to Expo Line & North Fraser/Millenium Loop, Brentwood Town Center transfer to North Fraser/Millenium loop, Cameron or Burquitlam transfer to Evergreen Loop, and Port Moody or Coquitlam Central with transfer to WCE.

I was considering making it one sole express line that would loop from Waterfront all the way around through Surrey and Coquitlam (following the green line, to be known as Evergreen Loop). If this were to happen, the train would maintain the name Expo Line, and would have an additional stop in Port Moody. The motivation behind that is that the South Frazer Loop (light blue) would benifit from having only one transfer to both UBC and Downtown Vancouver, rather then having to make 2 transfers onto the Evergreen Loop and then onto the Millenium Express to get to UBC, with 3 transfers to get onto the local North Fraser Loop, to be known as Millenium Loop if the Express lines are merged into one (orange line).

The orange coloured line could have any one of several names, but I'll call it North Fraser Loop, is a further extension of the currently known Millenium Line in both directions east from Waterfront and South out of UBC. Leaving Waterfront, it would head east along Hastings until Willingdon Ave. It would turn south along Willingdon, and stops would include a transfer point at Brentwood town Center to the Millenium Express and North Fraser Loop, a stop at BCIT, and probably another stop before the obvious transfer point at Metrotown to the Expo Line and North Fraser Loop. From there it would head west. As I said above I'm not to familiar with South Van, so I just choose an ROE that made sence from google maps. The train would head west along Imperial St. and continue along East 49th Ave. From there it goes north along Knight Street until 41st Ave., and would again head west until Dunbar Street. It turns north once more onto Dunbar, and then west again along West 16th onto the UBC Endowment lands, where it would loop up and around, connecting with currently planned Millenium Line Alignment.

As said above, the name could be changed to Millenium Loop if the two express lines are merged into the one Expo Line.

The green line would be known as the Evergreen Loop, and would follow the same route as the currently planned Evergreen Line and the north/south leg of the Millenium line, aswell as an extension going south through Port Moody, and across the new Port Mann to Surrey. The line wouldn't go through either Columbia or Lougheed stations, so transfers to express lines would have to be done at either one of the downtown Surrey stations, or the Burquitlam/Cameron Stations. Transfer to one of the North Fraser/Millenium Loop trains could either be done at Sapperton or Braid.
Implementing an express service on the current Expo Line and have a Millennium Line running would be virtually impossible unless you have long frequencies. I think the success of our SkyTrain system is really because we have trains coming at every minute during peek hours. Remember, SkyTrain is our main metro system, not an express commuter service. This sort of configuration looks more like San Francisco's BART, which is a commuter service subway, rather than an actual metro system.

The Gold Line snakes around Vancouver a lot. Not sure if you remember, but there was discussion a while ago involving Mr. X, nname, and trofirhen regarding extending the SkyTrain system on Hastings. The longer the line, the more problems it can potentially face, which will result in service delays. If there is a problem with the Expo Line right now, the entire line is going to be impacted. Can you imagine what will happen with the Gold Line in that case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Mind View Post
The Light Blue Line could be any one of several names, but I'm going to call it the South Fraser Loop. At first the line simply continues from Scott Road Station South. there would be a loop that connects to Skybridge aswell, but I'll get to that later. Going south from Scott Road the train would loop through Delta, eventually making it's way southeast to 56th ave. Again, I'm not to familiar with Delta, so I'll leave it up to you guys to argue the best ROE for the Delta/South Surrey area. From there it heads east with several stops in Cloverdale and Langley (4/5). From there in heads North. I've got three different ROEs laid out that are all vastly different, so I'm def. looking for comments and critisism here. The first line simply turns left on 72nd and eventually B-lines it back up into Surrey along the fraser highway, to reconnect with the Expo and Evergreen at either King George or Guilford. The second option heads east alogn 72nd, then north through to Walnut Grove and Port Kells, and then loops back down across the highway again and heads straight west along 88th until either the Fraser Highway going to King George, or north along 160th to get loop up and over to Guilford. I intentionally avoided the Native reserve and any possible headaches that could cause. The last line option would go through Port Kells and Walnut Grove along same route as option 2, again with 2 or more stations. For sake of Simplicity I just cut line straight through and across the river, when in reality I imagine it would weave around a bit so as to have stops near Colossus and the bridge. From there I don't know exactly where the line woudl cross the river, but after it does it would head east and loop through Maple Ridge, with a transfer point at the WCE stop before heading back weast to Pitt Meadows, across over into Port Coquitlam, and joining up with the Evergreen Loop at the Port Moody WCE Station. The Line would follow the Evergreen Loop through Surrey from there until Scott Road, however there would be trackage to head north along Evergreen (see below).
Also with your plan, there is a lot interlining services which impacts frequency and reliability of a service, which is a problem, unless you are thinking of double tracking the entire system, which would obviously be costly.
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  #265  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2009, 3:36 AM
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Only the express lines would have any form of double tracking, which would soley be an extra line around each station. If the normal right of way is free and clear, the train would just cruise though the station, while if a local train is parked, it would take the extra express line around the station. At stations where the train actually stops, there would be dedicated platforms for the express trains so as to not conflict with local trains.

I agree the orange line going through Van is Quite the snake. I was considering breaking it down into two smaller Loops, one for the northeastern half of Vancouver and western Burnaby, one for most of Vancouver and southwest Burnaby, and one for east Burnaby/west Coquitlam.
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  #266  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2009, 4:46 AM
nname nname is offline
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I guess this thread revive from the dead.. so I think I'll post mine:


Note this is just "SkyTrain" network only.. Both Vancouver (as far east as Willingdon) and Surrey will have a separate LRT/Streetcar network, while the outer edge (Ladner, Panorama, White Rock, Langley, Maple Ridge) will be connected by BRT.

For each of the 5 "SkyTrain" lines, the stops are:

Blue (Expo Line)
E03 Dundarave
E04 Ambleside
E05 Park Royal
E06 Prospect Point
E07 Stanley Park
E08 Denman
E09 Coal Harbor
E10 Burrard
E11 Granville
E12 Stadium-Chinatown
E13 Main Street-Science World
E14 Broadway-Commerical
E15 Nanaimo
E16 29th Avenue
E17 Joyce-Collingwood
E18 Patterson
E19 Metrotown
E20 Royal Oak
E21 Edmonds
E22 22nd Street
E23 New Westminster
E24 Columbia
E25 Scott Road
E26 Gateway
E27 Surrey Central
E28 King George
E29 Surrey Memorial Hospital
E30 88th Ave
E31 Newton North
E32 Newton
E33 64th Avenue
E34 Panorama Ridge
E35 Colebrook
E36 Morgan Creek
E37 King George South
E38 20th Avenue
E39 White Rock Centre

Yellow (Millennium Line)
M01 Willingdon
M02 Kootenay
M03 PNE
M04 Hastings-Nanaimo
M05 Hastings-Commerical
M06 Glen
M07 Dunlevy
M08 Gastown
M09 Waterfront
M10 Burrard
M11 Granville
M12 Stadium-Chinatown
M13 Main Street-Science World
M14 Broadway-Commerical
M15 Nanaimo
M16 29th Avenue
M17 Joyce-Collingwood
M18 Patterson
M19 Metrotown
M20 Royal Oak
M21 Edmonds
M22 22nd Street
M23 New Westminster
M24 Columbia
M25 Woodland
M26 Sapperton
M27 Braid
M28 Lougheed Town Centre

I was hoping to have it as a ring line, but I guess the SFU section just isn't possible.. Otherwise, I wish to have:
M29 Forest Grove
M30 Univercity
M31 SFU
M32 Duthie
M33 Kensington-Westridge
M34 Capitol Hill
... and back to Willingdon

Light Blue (Canada Line)
C01 Lynn Valley Centre
C02 19th Street
C03 St Andrews
C04 Victoria Park
> <West Vancouver Branch>
> CW1 Park Royal
> CW2 Pemberton
> CW3 Capilano Mall
> CW4 Forbes
C05 Lonsdale Quay
C06 Waterfront
C07 Vancouver City Centre
C08 Yaletown-Roundhouse
C09 Olympic Village
C10 Broadway-City Hall
C11 King Edward
C12 Oakridge-41st Ave
C13 Langara-49th Ave
C14 Marine Drive
C15 Bridgeport
> <Airport Branch>
> CA1 Templeton
> CA2 Sea Island Centre
> CA3 YVR3
> CA4 YVR-Airport
C16 Aberdeen
C17 Lansdowne
C18 Richmond Centre
C19 Brighouse
C20 Francis
C21 Steveston Hwy
C22 Horseshoe Way
C23 Ladner North
C24 Central Ladner
C25 Ladner Exchange

Green (Evergreen Line)
G01 UBC
G02 Acadia
G03 Point Grey
G04 Alma
G05 Kitslano
G06 Arbutus
G07 Broadway-Granville
G08 Oak-VGH
G09 Broadway-City Hall
G10 Mount Pleasant
G11 Finning
G12 VCC-Clark
G13 Broadway-Commerical Drive
G14 Renfrew
G15 Rupert
G16 Gilmore
G17 Brentwood Town Centre
G18 Holdom
G19 Sperling-Burnaby Lake
G20 Lake City Way
G21 Production Way-University
G22 Lougheed Town Centre
G23 Cameron
G24 Burquitlam
G25 Douglas
G26 Port Moody
G27 Ioco
G28 Coquitlam Central
> <Westwood Plateau Branch>
> GC1 Lincoln
> GC2 Douglas College
> GC3 David Avenue
G29 Port Coquitlam Centre
G30 Coast Meridian
G31 Ottawa Street

... And when Pitt Meadows is developed enough...
G32 Pitt River (Dewdney Trunk)
G33 Pitt Meadows (Harris)
G34 Maple Meadows (Meadowtown)
G35 Meadow Ridge (207th Street)
G36 Ridge Meadows Hospital (Laity)
G37 220 Street
G38 Haney Place

PS. those station names are for fun only

Purple (I'll just call it "Langley Line")
L26 Gateway
L27 East Whalley
L28 144th Street
L29 Guildford
L30 96th Avenue
L31 Fleetwood
L32 160th Street
L33 168th Street
L34 Cloverdale North
L35 Central Cloverdale
L36 Willowbrook
L37 Langley Centre

Note the line would follow the Expo Line to Burrard and then Millennium Ring Line to Hastings-Commerical during peak hours
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  #267  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2009, 5:14 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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The map has SkyTrain going to the right places, but maybe with the wrong interlined lines assigned to do the job.

Good options:
Evergreen Line

Not so good options:
Canada Line
Expo Line
Red Line
  • North Shore branches are bad ideas... the current ferry service is sufficient I think... also keep in mind we're going to have to tunnel deep for those ships to keep passing through, and that would be extremely costly. This doesn't include the tunneling we have to do on the north side of the inlet.
  • Delta branch is also not very good. I don't think there will be enough population to support the service. It might be better to have the line run to a popular recreational centre (Riverport), have a stop at Ironwood and get Delta people to take buses to that location.
  • The 180 degree turn made by the Yellow Line in Downtown isn't entirely good practice. You may end up with duplicate station names and people may get confused as a result.
  • Expo Line White Rock branch will go into some farmland areas. We can't really have development around there can we? Also I doubt that White Rock again has enough people to support the line extension.
  • Finally, you've sort of made some of the lines really long which may not help if traffic gets stuck somewhere along the way.

- Allan Kuan
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  #268  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2009, 5:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
North Shore branches are bad ideas... the current ferry service is sufficient I think... also keep in mind we're going to have to tunnel deep for those ships to keep passing through, and that would be extremely costly. This doesn't include the tunneling we have to do on the north side of the inlet.
I think the SeaBus would eventually needed to be replaced by some sort of faster and higher capacity system. Not now, but maybe 20 or 30 years down the road. For construction, I think they can use the same method as constructing the Massey Tunnel (cut and cover to the edge of the water, lay precast concrete segments of tunnel onto the bottom, and then drain it). And for the North Van side, the West Van branch can be done completely elevated as the highest elevation it reach is less than 20m above sea level. The Lynn Valley branch, assuming a 6% grade and 120m platform, you only need to tunnel to Grand and 15th, then it can transition to at-grade and then elevated. So the total tunnel length is actually less than 2.5km.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
Delta branch is also not very good. I don't think there will be enough population to support the service. It might be better to have the line run to a popular recreational centre (Riverport), have a stop at Ironwood and get Delta people to take buses to that location.
The idea is to have a rail line bypass the Massey Tunnel so it would be quicker than by car or express bus. Plus going all the way to Delta would eliminate the need for express bus completely in the South Delta area. Again, this is probably 20-30 years down the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
The 180 degree turn made by the Yellow Line in Downtown isn't entirely good practice. You may end up with duplicate station names and people may get confused as a result.
Cut the line to two at any place in the Downtown area will result in a transfer for almost all short distance trip. And there should be nothing wrong with a ring line, right (does people from other cities got confused by a ring line?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
Expo Line White Rock branch will go into some farmland areas. We can't really have development around there can we? Also I doubt that White Rock again has enough people to support the line extension.
The first phase can stop at Newton. Well, when I was making the map, I was doubtful about this part too, but then the farm land is only 2km long, so I guess it would be okay (and who knows what will happens in 10-20 years?). The reason I route it to 152th Street instead of staying on King George is that I think it would have a better chance to be developed. In fact, there's already an office park starting up at the Colebrook area (hence a station there). And don't forget the newly developed Morgan Creek neighbourhood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
Finally, you've sort of made some of the lines really long which may not help if traffic gets stuck somewhere along the way.
These lines may be long by Canadian standard, but probably not by international standard. If the Expo Line (55km) was all built today, it would probably be around the 20th longest line in the world. But if it is build in, say 2050, I don't even think it would make the top 100. Again, there are many longer lines all over the world - some automated too, and they don't look having too much problem.

Last edited by nname; Aug 13, 2009 at 6:03 AM.
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  #269  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2009, 6:34 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Arrow requested feedback

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Mind View Post
After having the hastings line go south through metrotown I think it's be cool if it went through a southern portion of Vancouver to loop back up too and connect with the millenium/evergreen line at UBC.

Hi C.M.
Most of your ideas seem good to me, especially the orange coloured Hastings Line circular city loop going down Willingon, the west to UBC. It seems to connect with the Expo Line at Broadway/Commercial (which will end up being a PRETTY big hub)!

You mentioned which right of way to use. This again is up for grabs, but in the Vancouver part anyway, I'd go along 49th ave, then possibly 41st avenue, before turning up Dunbar. For aesthetics sake if nothing else (not to mention property values, and those property owners' outrage if it isnt . . . I would put that part underground for sure. I realize this means Big $$$$$, but having it elevated through those neighbourhoods would be catastrophically ugly. Cut and cover is fine. No need for deep-tube boring, which is even more expensive.

I cannot really comment on your blue South Fraser complex of lines, as I am very unfamiliar with that part of the region, although of course it DOES need serving.

Frankly, I would have made a priority of putting in heavy commuter rail (WCE) to Langley - and hopefully to Abbotsford - and have your south Fraser Regions connect to that, but as I said, this is not an area too familiar to me.

Regarding having the Expo line as a limited express, stopping only at transfer points: YES! ! Excellent idea. (This concept is frequent in Tokyo, where two or more lines travel parallel to each other, one local, one semi local; the other a limited express) Great idea there.

However, as a critique, if I may, I would have it as a limited Express all the time, and its parallel line (The Millenium ?) as stopping at each stop.
I very much like the western half of the Evergreen loop which gets right up there into the Northeast quadrant.

My only question on this, and of some of the blue Fraser Valley lines, is that they and the Eastern part of the Evergreen loop seems
to "meander" quite a bit..

The objective of course is to serve as many people as possible, but I wonder how practical the R.O.W. patterns are. I'm not saying they're not good, but just that they do zigzag a fair amount, it seems.

(However, as I said, this part of the region is not too familiar to me, so I could be way off-base with that remark)

The only other point that I might differ on is that I would increase commuter rail, both on the existing Mission City line, and on the as-yet hypthetical Langley / Abbotsford line.

However, in a nutshell, I REALLY like that orange Hastings Line city loop. If it gets built, it will show its worth. (Even in very big cities like London, which has a relatively small inner-city Circle Line, the need for a larger outer circle line is screamingly apparent.)

Your gold-coloured east-west crosstown Millenium line is worth every penny spent building it, and the portion of the Evergreen Line, going from New Westminster, deep into the Northeast quadrant, connecting at major transfer ponts in between seems "right-on" to me.

My only reservation, as I said before, is the need for more heavy commuter rail, and (especially on the projected southern route) lines feeding into it. There may not be enough density out there yet for rail. It may have to be busses for a while, keeping in mind that much of that land is in the ALR.

Have you thought about making use of the Arbutus rail corridor, having it go downtown (possibly UNDER Burrard Street, then somehow serving the West End? Although the West End is smallish on the map, it is, as everyone knows, densely populated, and has the potential for high ridership demand, not only to downtown, but anywhere other people go, too)

I've been straightforward with your plan regarding what -in my opinion only - is good and what is open to question, but all in all I think some of your ideas are innovative and right on! Hope this helps. T

Last edited by deasine; Aug 13, 2009 at 7:08 AM.
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  #270  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2009, 7:08 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Do not quote the entire post. I don't know how many times I have to say that. This is the second time already.

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  #271  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2009, 7:34 AM
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Is it just me or is it sad that we probably won't be able to live long enough to see all of this happen.
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  #272  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2009, 8:15 AM
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Is it just me or is it sad that we probably won't be able to live long enough to see all of this happen.
The world ends in 2012 anyways
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  #273  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2009, 10:53 AM
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I sort of wonder if it'd be more economical to have trolley buses ply the North Shore routes? They perform better on hills, and the North Shore is filled with them. I know picky residents will start to complain about wires and such but it doesn't help either to have buses struggling up the hills at 15 km/h. This idea could also be applied to some other mountainous routes... like the SFU climbers (135 + 145) and the 22 (which runs just outside my front door).

Also, I have been continuing to update my ideas with the transport system here:
Streetcars in Vancouver
Regional Transport in Vancouver

This third map is probably overkill but oh well...
High Speed Rail Pacific Northwest

- Allan Kuan
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  #274  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2009, 2:49 PM
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^ I think the regional one looks great. The Hastings Line/ Burrard Inlet Line should be connected to Coquitlam by going right through Burnaby Mountain/SFU. (since St. John's Rd and E Hastings are parallel.) Evergreen Line would run the lower branch (Port Coquitlam branch) instead.

Part of the map is here: SkyTrain Regional Map
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  #275  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2009, 12:15 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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The link isn't working?

Now some people may wonder why the Burrard Inlet line loops around in the middle of Coquitlam before heading southwest to Braid. I thought that it'd be a good idea to connect to the shops on Lougheed as well as connecting the Coquitlam Rec Centre and Malliardville.

- Allan Kuan
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  #276  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2009, 9:24 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Transport 2040

Another one of my visions. Just click on the image below to view the original image file of 7500 pixels. It's a fantasy, I won't deny it and I know most of it wouldn't even be considered but hey, if we had a system like this, it would be amazing.



One of the largest changes is the addition of the CityRail system to Metro Vancouver. Within the City of Vancouver, everyone would be within 20 minutes of bus to any CityRail or SkyTrain line, and even less when the entire system is built out.

SkyTrain
The SkyTrain system will be expanded and improved, being the main regional transportation line.
Quote:
SkyTrain Reconfiguration
Evergreen Line will replace the current Millennium Line until Production Way-University. The Evergreen Line will run to Production Way-University, where a third platform will be constructed, slightly lower than the current platform level. This allows two transfer stations, reducing the future need for expansion at Lougheed. This will also reduce a transfer for commuters to SFU, where they will be transferring onto a bus at Production Way.

System Standardization
A standard branding will be developed for the entire SkyTrain system. New platform signs will be installed at all Expo and Millennium Line stations, which will be similar to the Canada Line ones, displaying next train information. Announcer system for trains heading into stations will be introduced and new messages inside trains to match those on the Canada Line.

Millennium Line Extension - Coquitlam Phase I
The first phase calls for an extension to Douglas College, exactly like the current Evergreen Line project, with stops at Lougheed, Burquitlam, Port Moody, Ioco, Coquitlam Central, Lincoln, and Douglas College.

A OMC will be built near Falcon west of Ioco.

Milennium Line Extension - UBC Phase II
Second phase of the Millennium Line extension underground 10th Avenue serving the Broadway corridor.

Expo Line Extension
The extension of the Expo Line extension begins from King George heading up to 100th Avenue running at-grade, then heading north up 150th Street above-grade, to Guildford, and heading back south down 152nd Street to Fleetwood.

Future extensions can continue down to Langley via Fraser Hwy.

Canada Line Extension
The Canada Line will be expanded by adding three of the four future stations at 33rd Avenue, YVR3 (named YVR-USA Terminal as the airport northeast expansion is expected to become the new US terminal), and Capstan Way in conjunction with the redevelopment. The Lansdowne Stn-Richmond-Brighouse Stn will be closed and double-tracked, allowing extensions down to Granville Ave, continuing on the north side above ground, then run near grade level at Railway Avenue/Thompson Community Centre. There is existing ROWs down Railway Ave, with ample room for the Canada Line tracks. The extension will end just before Steveston, allowing future extensions east (if necessary).

With this extension, three out of four trains will be heading to Richmond, the fourth train heading to the airport. Such service is similar to Hong Kong MTR's 3+1 Po Lam, Lohas Park Service.

Millennium Line Extension - Port Coquitlam Phase III
Continuing down existing CP Rail tracks, a station will be located at the current PoCo WCE Stn, then continue diagonally across the rail yard and terminating east of Coast Meridian Rd (Dominion Avenue).

Millennium Line Extension - Oxford Heights Phase IV
This extension will only happen if when the North heights area is fully developed with higher density towers. The extension just builds from Douglas Park Stn, above-ground heading down the centre of David Avenue. Once this extension is complete, the Coquitlam area between Pinetree Way and Coast Meridian Rd would be surrounded by rapid transit.

Similar to the Canada Line, three of the four trains will be heading to Coast Meridian and the fourth train will be heading to Dominion.
CityRail
The CityRail network is similar to San Francisco's MUNI Light Rail System, with underground stations in city centres and becoming at-grade, fully integrated into neighborhoods outside of city centres. The network acts as both a branch from the SkyTrain network and a second regional connector system.

Quote:
Downtown-Arbutus Corridor - Line A
The CityRail system begins with the initial service line between Arbutus SkyTrain Millennium Line Stn and Marine Drive Canada Line Stn using existing ROW down the CP Rail Corridor. Specific portions of the corridor will be double-tracked. Service will be every seven minutes during peek hours and fifteen off-peak.

The OMC would be located near the Marople Loop. This OMC will be expansive as it will be the future hub of many CityRail lines.

The second phase of the line will continue northwards using existing ROWs. A bored tunnel will begin after Pennyfarthing Stn behind the Molson Building, continuing directly deep underneath Burrard Street with stops at Pacific, Davie, Alberni, Burrard Expo & Evergreen Line Stn. This tunnel will be used for many CityRail lines. It would then continue on Waterfront Road, separate from vehicular traffic. The platform at the Waterfront Stn hub will be constructed near the current SeaBus/Heliport Parking Lot.

Future extensions can continue north underground to Lonsdale, replacing the SeaBus network and merging with the Northshore CityRail line to West Vancouver.

Hastings Corridor - Line C
The second line of the CityRail network will begin from the Waterfront Stn hub, continuing eastwards to Waterfront Park. A station will be located at the park, with a pedestrian bridge over the tracks to Carrall St, Vancouver's recreational greenway. The line will slowly rise around the Main Street overpass and over the tracks on Gore Avenue. Gore Avenue will be restricted from regular traffic, allowing only commercial access. The line will then turn on Hastings St, running down the centre of the street, partially segregated from traffic. Turning at Willingdon, the line will continue south to Halifax St at Brentwood Town Centre, arriving at the terminus, which will be perpendicular to the current mall facade, in line with future redevelopment of Brentwood Town Centre.

The second phase of the line will begin after the 41st Avenue CityRail corridor is in service. It will continue combined service with the 41st Avenue CityRail line until Moscrop, where the line will run east on Deer Lake Parkway. The line will then turn on Canada Way and continue down the same road until New Westminster station, the final terminus.

41st Avenue Corridor - Line B
Beginning at UBC Millennium Line Stn, the CityRail line will run down Westbrook Mall, serving key campus and residential areas, as well as the upcoming South Campus area near the TRIUMF Facility. Turning onto Marine Dr, the line will run down the centre median onto 41st Avenue down the centre of the road, partially segregated from traffic. At Elm Park, the line will tunnel underground through the Kerrisdale Area and then run at-grade again after Maple St. At Rupert St, the line will continue into the slope, running yet again underground using bored tunnel construction. After Kerr St, the bored tunnels will go down McKinnon St and turn underneath the SkyTrain guideway, returning at-grade underneath the guideways on Vanness Ave, segregated from traffic. Because of the CityRail line, the bus loop will be moved on the South side of the station, with an improved entrance.

Phase two of the project calls for the CityRail line continuing southeast underneath the guideway until Boundary Rd, where the line will then head north until Moscrop. Running with traffic, the line will head down east and then turn north on the east side of Willingdon. After Sanderson, the line will rise above the road. The guideway will continue on the side of Willingdon, and then head northeast after Canada Way, heading on Alpha Ave near Costco. The line will head on an expanded Alpha Ave, partially segregated from traffic, then end at Brentwood Terminus.

A second satellite OMC will be built behind Costco.

West Vancouver - Line D
The West Vancouver CityRail line runs from Waterfront Stn, following CityRail tunnel until Alberni Stn, where it will then head underground on Robson St. It will then rise to street level between Thurlow and Bute. Because of this, Robson will be redesigned for pedestrians only between Jervis and Granville. The line will continue heading at-grade down Robson, making a sharp turn around the Lagoon, following an expanded, seven lane Stanley Park Causeway, two of the lanes for transit. Vehicular traffic will be redirected into a tunnel, replacing Lions Gate Bridge. The bridge will be used for transit-only light rail and bus service, as well as pedestrians and cyclists. Continuing down the bridge, the CityRail line turns on Marine Dr on guideways above the roadway. It will run down the centre median of Marine Dr at-grade after Taylor Way until "The Village at Park Royal," where it will head south, then back west using the rails, ending at 17th Street at John Lawson Park.

Bus service will dramatically change in West Vancouver, where most of the buses end at Park Royal, feeding passengers onto the light rail line. 257 Express, however, will continue running into downtown via CityRail guideways and Lions Gate bridge. Buses from North Vancouver heading into downtown will remain intact.

Marine Corridor - Line E
Beginning at Marine Drive Canada Line Stn, the CityRail line will head on Marine Dr instead of running on existing tracks to better serve residents. After Inverness St, the line will run around the interchange, underneath the bridge and onto existing rail, serving the Fraserlands area. Continuing on existing rail, the line will also serve the Glenlyton Business Parks, Marine Crossing, and industrial areas. Heading on new rail, the line continues underneath Queensbourough bridge, with a station at 22nd Street, connected by a pedestrian bridge. The line will continue on guideways above railways, with an elaborate station at Quayside, serving those residents. The line will continue on the third level of a newly redesigned New Westminster waterfront, where the first level is used by trucks, second level for rail, and third level for general public, which will be at the height of Columbia St.

The Marine Corridor line does not use electric trains. A separate OMC will be built near Market Crossing.

North Shore Connector - Line F
Running with existing West Vancouver CityRail line, the connector continues on guideways above the Lions Gate interchange and then run down the centre median of Marine Dr before Capilano St. The line continues on Keith Rd W in the centre around Victoria Park, then down Lonsdale Ave to the bus loop and SeaBus.

A third satellite OMC will be built south of Capilano Mall.

King George - Line G
Beginning at Guildford Stn, the CityRail runs down 104th Avenue to Surrey Central Stn, then run down centre median of King George Hwy, terminating at Newton.

Future extensions can continue south to White Rock Centre.

Fleetwood-Newton - Line H
From Fleetwood Stn, the line runs down the centre median of 88th Avenue, then south on 120th Street, and run with traffic on 72nd Avenue until Newton.

The main OMC for Surrey will be built near Nordel WCE Stn.

Future extensions can include past Fleetwood and north on 160th Street to the Park & Ride Facility and beyond.

Future Victoria/Commercial CityRail
As the area densifies, a CityRail line would be constructed from Waterfront Stn to Commercial Dr, heading south to Victoria, potentially connecting with the Marine Corridor Line E.
RapidBus
New RapidBus service, which is an improved B-Line service with SkyTrain-like amenities. Service meets FTN (frequent transit network)requirements.
Quote:
Metrotown-SFU
A RapidBus will run from Metrotown Stn down Willingdon to Moscrop, where it will then use CityRail lanes/guideway to Hastings, then head up Burnaby mountain to SFU, connecting the campus and UniverCity. The route will then come back down to Production Way-University Stn.

Bridgeport-Ferry Terminal
This RapidBus replaces a few suburban routes. Service runs every 10 minutes to Pacific Drive, and every 20 minutes to the Ferry terminal during peak hours. It runs every 15 minutes off-peak to Pacific Drive, and every hour to the Ferry Terminal.

Bridgeport-White Rock Centre
With improved, more comfortable buses, this route is simply an improvement over the current 351.

White Rock Centre-Coquitlam
Originally named "The Bullet" by many, this route connects White Rock with Newton, Guildford, and Coquitlam.

Highway 1-Langley
This RapidBus runs from Lougheed to Langley Centre via Highway 1 HOV lanes and improved 200 Street, connecting many Park & Ride facilities with municipal centres.

Maple Ridge Connector
RapidBus initially runs from Coquitlam Central to Maple Ridge City Centre, then across Golden Ears Bridge to 200 street down to Langley. After Phase III of Millennium Line, the route heads up Coast Meridian Rd, then on David Ave to Douglas College Stn. Once Phase IV of the Millennium Line is complete, the route ends at Coast Meridian Stn.
West Coast Express
West Coast Express will be an improved, premium commuter rail service.

Quote:
Spirit of Burrard
This is simply the current West Coast Express line. The portion between Vancouver and Port Coquitlam will be double tracked, with service running both ways in between Vancouver and Coquitlam. The line would be extended to Abbotsford City Centre, where the line would run during peek hours in one direction.

Spirit of Fraser
A new rapid transit line running under the West Coast Express branding, the line would use Surrey's Interurban line from Scott Road Expo Line Stn to Abbotsford City Centre. A train will be arriving every 15 minutes during peak hours from Scott Road to Langley City Centre, and every thirty minutes during peak hours from Langley City Centre to Abbotsford City Centre. For non-peak hours, a train will be arriving every thirty minutes and an hour respectively.

Last edited by deasine; Aug 14, 2009 at 10:45 AM.
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  #277  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2009, 3:12 PM
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It's better than many. Still, a lot of the fantasy maps try to make light rail loops, which makes about zero sense to me. The objective seems to be: can I make this line become a circle. Put lines in a few select corridors. Straight lines are best.

Some of the bus routes are confusing local and express services. For example, the Willingdon line and the Tsawwassen line looks painfully slow. Taking it to the ferries would suck.

West Van is close enough to downtown to use it as the hub of it's local bus network. Adding a light rail line would force a transfer on Marine, making trips longer. There's also no development potential due to the zoning.
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  #278  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2009, 4:08 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Arrow Don't knock it; many European cities have something like it ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
Transport 2040

Another one of my visions. Just click on the image below to view the original image file of 7500 pixels. It's a fantasy, I won't deny it and I know most of it wouldn't even be considered but hey, if we had a system like this, it would be amazing.
_______________________________________________________
Deasine, before you sadly kiss it off as being too elaborate, too ultra, too superb, and above all too expensive$$$$$$$$$ be assured that many European cities (Frankfurt and Munich are both great examples) have transit systems as elaborate and developed as this. It SEEMS too far-fetched to you, because one would only expect to find this in New York, but cities with the density and and frequency of what you have do exist, and they're not just London, NYC, Paris and Tokyo.

I think that your treatment of downtown is especially good, using the Arbutus corridor to put in City Rail, and having it run downtown and through the West end, in addition to the regular Skytrain.

Also, the fast bus service up to SFU is a lot more practical that another plan to drill a tube right under SFU and have a station some 1000 feet deep.

What I WOULD changed is have the Westcoast Express Fraser line runnig right through to downtown and avoid the transfer at Scott Road, and (sadly) have only one tunnel under Burrard inlet, to Lonsdale Quay. (two tunnels? that IS a fantasy! A fabulous one, but nevertheless a fantasy)!!

The rail transit from Lonsdale Quay could then follow existing train tracks and have several stops in West Vancouver, at Ambleside and Dundarave, for example, where it could link with COMMUTER RAIL heading up to Squamish, which was in another design not included in yours.

The City rail line along Hastings is important, and could tie in at Waterfront, and go east as far as feasible. (Where you have its Eastern terminus seems good)

As far as the outlying exurb bus lines, that's not something I'm familiar with, but as was just commented, a better and faster link to the Tsawassen Ferry seems in order.

Otherwise, all in all, "d'après moi'" a pretty terrific overall design, and not one to be cast aside as too elaborate.

As I said, other citites in Europe have systems equally, and sometimes even more, elaborate. Don't throw this one away.

Last edited by deasine; Aug 14, 2009 at 7:59 PM.
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  #279  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2009, 9:26 PM
deasine deasine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fever View Post
It's better than many. Still, a lot of the fantasy maps try to make light rail loops, which makes about zero sense to me. The objective seems to be: can I make this line become a circle. Put lines in a few select corridors. Straight lines are best.
I don't understand the concept of loops either, especially if they are interlined, which is a total nightmare for transportation operators. If one thing goes wrong, the entire thing will be down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fever View Post
Some of the bus routes are confusing local and express services. For example, the Willingdon line and the Tsawwassen line looks painfully slow. Taking it to the ferries would suck.
Well the express bus routes are more like suburban connectors. They aren't much different from the current express routes right now. At many of the times, the buses don't really stop too much after a muncipal centre, from what I have experienced at least. I wasn't exactly thinking of replacing the 620 though.

The Willingdon portion between Moscrop to Metrotown is quite similar to the current local buses. The stops are there, but usually, the bus doesn't stop at every stop. After that, the stops are spaced quite far apart if you look at it on a more scaled map =P

Quote:
Originally Posted by fever View Post
West Van is close enough to downtown to use it as the hub of it's local bus network. Adding a light rail line would force a transfer on Marine, making trips longer. There's also no development potential due to the zoning.
True. Anyways, it could just use guideways and Lions Gate Bridge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
Deasine, before you sadly kiss it off as being too elaborate, too ultra, too superb, and above all too expensive$$$$$$$$$ be assured that many European cities (Frankfurt and Munich are both great examples) have transit systems as elaborate and developed as this. It SEEMS too far-fetched to you, because one would only expect to find this in New York, but cities with the density and and frequency of what you have do exist, and they're not just London, NYC, Paris and Tokyo.
Well, we aren't London, NYC, Paris, or Tokyo quite yet. Maybe we will by 2040 but who knows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
What I WOULD changed is have the Westcoast Express Fraser line runnig right through to downtown and avoid the transfer at Scott Road, and (sadly) have only one tunnel under Burrard inlet, to Lonsdale Quay. (two tunnels? that IS a fantasy! A fabulous one, but nevertheless a fantasy)!!
I think we have to realize that in Vancouver, the movement of commuters differs from other cities. In fact, we really don't have that many commuters transporting between Vancouver and some areas of the South of Fraser, i.e. Surrey. The majority of the South of Fraser commuters actually travel within the South of Fraser. As Surrey grows as the region's second downtown, and Surrey has extensive plans for such, you can see this pattern even more. What the Spirit of Fraser WCE line provides is an express commuter service for the municipal centres of Surrey, with fast transportation connections to Surrey Central via Expo Line from Scott Road Stn and King George Line from Newton Stn. Much of the effort is to concentrate on moving people within the region. By the way, with such a transportation network in Surrey, there can be a complete new local bus network connecting passengers from city centres to communities and CityRail stops.
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  #280  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2009, 9:52 PM
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Seems ambitious, but I do like it, Only one problem though, Millennium Line should be the oriignal Waterfront to Production Way-University Station and Evergreen Line go from UBC for Coquitlam, not the other way around. Assuming the Liberals are still in power, they'll probably do this to trunctuate NDP's child the Millennium Line and have the Liberal child Evergreen Line take its place, lol.
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