$150-million Downtown Vancouver-Downtown Victoria harbour fast ferry project proposed

[mr.x]

Fast ferry needs input to float
Website survey key to landing $150 million for harbour project

By Carla Wilson, Times Colonist
April 21, 2009 6:27 AM

A survey is being conducted with hopes of targeting potential riders of a proposed high-speed ferry service between Victoria and Vancouver that would cost $150 million to start running.

Results from the survey are key to securing required funding for the 90-minute service on 500-passenger ferries, said Don Stein, founder and CEO of Nautisol marine and aeronautical solutions.

"I have three major foreign groups ready to give me the $150 million," Stein said yesterday. He would not provide details.

"This is just a sweet project for this region."

The survey was posted on his website last week and has garnered 400 responses, he said. It will run until the second week in May and Stein said the vast majority of respondents have been favourable.

It would be a tourist draw and bolster the local economy. Conference organizers in Vancouver could send hundreds of delegates to Victoria using this service, Stein said.

If all goes according to plan, two 50-metre-long, hybrid hovercraft-catamaran ferries would be built in Vancouver and launched late next year, he said. A third ferry, possibly serving Nanaimo or used on the main run during busy times, would be launched six months later.

A one-way fare would be $50. A business-class ticket would be $85 and provide work stations and mini-conference areas, Stein said. The first ferry of the day would depart at 7 a.m. Ferries would have wireless Internet service.

The vessels would offer a comfortable ride, he said, responding to a question about seasickness on catamarans. Based on blueprints from Norway, the vessels could operate most days in our waters, Stein said. "It's the smoothest technology on the planet."

These ferries would operate out of floating terminals in the harbours of each city, Stein said. The Victoria terminal would be in the Inner Harbour "front row centre" but he would not give the location or say whether he has a signed lease.

The issue of marinas is a sensitive one in Victoria, where controversy is flaring over the merits of a proposal for a marina for mega yachts in front of the Songhees neighbourhood.

Plans call for ferries to run six times daily, each way, Stein said, predicting that they would carry about one million passengers a year.

Today's changing economy has prompted people to look at existing costs to travel between the cities and at how much their time is worth, Stein said.

Car ferries aren't needed on ferry runs anymore, Stein said. People can use public transport. "This is what they do in Europe."

Stein dealt with the Greater Victoria Harbour Authority more than two years ago, promoting the idea of harbour-to-harbour service.

At that time, the harbour authority entered a six-month letter of understanding with Stein to put together a detailed business plan.

Paul Servos, harbour authority CEO, said the letter of understanding expired and the authority has not heard from Stein since May 2008.

Harbour-to-harbour service was tried in the early 1990s when Royal Sealink Express ran catamarans between the cities but the vessels were blamed for causing seasickness and the service was eventually halted.

Web survey is at: nautisol.com

cjwilson@tc.canwest.com
© Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist

http://www.vancouversun.com/Fast+fer...962/story.html


a good article from Business in Van: http://nautisol.com/files/BIV%20Binder.pdf

survey: http://nautisol.com/

[mr.x]

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by mr.x

http://www.vancouversun.com/Fast+fer...962/story.html


a good article from Business in Van: http://nautisol.com/files/BIV%20Binder.pdf

survey: http://nautisol.com/

Sounds like it would compete more with HeliJet than BC Ferries. 90 minutes isn't bad, but I think business people will still fly.

[bulliver]

Sounds like it would compete more with HeliJet than BC Ferries. 90 minutes isn't bad, but I think business people will still fly.

Perhaps, but the DT-DT service is pretty attractive. YVR will be accessable with the RAV line opening, but Victoria airport is still in the middle of nowhere with Victoria an hour long bus ride away. Price seems reasonable. It would be nice to cut down on that 90 minutes though.

[LeftCoaster]

Flying to Victoria usually does not involve the airport. I know when I have to go to Victoria I get sent on Harbour Air or Helijet which both involve downtown to downtown flights.

[johnjimbc]

I had read the article from the Vancouver Business paper. It sounds like an excellent idea. For that price point, I'd be willing to travel just for a get-away trip. As it is, it's harder to justify a weekend in Victoria unless I'm going there for work. It would make for a nice trip for guests and visitors as well.

I have always been really surprised that there isn't a passenger ferry from downtown to downtown. Having to ferry a vehicle or bus ride on either end doesn't exactly make for an appealing or cost-effective option.

The funny thing that struck me was the Vancouver Business article was the citing of past "failed" attempts at a service from downtown Vancouver to Vancouver Island. One was from 2003 that was to Nanaimo (not Victoria). The other was from back in 1992. That's stretching a bit far back isn't it? Population alone, not to mention lifestyles, would seem to make that a rather distant comparison point.

I really hope this happens; I'd certainly use the service, as would my company.

[Vancity]

I'm surprised that downtown Vancouver didn't have a service like this before. It would be convenient for people coming from the airport to want to visit Victoria without having to go to Tswassen for the ferry. I don't know too many people who use the helijet. I've never used it myself, actually. Is it convenient? Also, 90 minutes (1.5 hrs) is still quite a while. How long is the ferry usually? (this also brings back the fast cat ferries - anyone remember that fiasco?)

[djun]

Ferry is also ~90min from Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay (or Horseshoe Bay to Departure Bay). But remember that it takes about 30min-1h go from Downtown to the ferry terminals on both ends, so a full trip will take 3-4h (including traffic, ferry lineups, busy summer day, etc).

So a DT to DT service for 90min isn't bad--add about 30min for un/loading/waiting...and so overall, this new service will get you to your destination in about half the time.

If you want even *faster* service, of course planes and helicopters will take you across in 20min!

[WarrenC12]

As a somewhat regular traveler to Victoria (thanks Dad for moving there... ), I'd probably support this at $50. My Dad lives close to downtown Victoria, and I live in East Van. The amount of driving to get to and from the terminals is a joke.

If they can do it for $50/head and be profitable, all the more power to them. Here are my options and times, round trip:

Option 1: Bus to terminal, ride on the Victoria side:

$20 Bus fare (3 zones x 4 times)
$54 ferry ($13.50 x 4 trips)
$5 gas - Victoria - My Dad picking us up and dropping off, est.

$79 round trip.

Time: 4.5hrs, door to door, sometimes longer. If we miss a transfer in Ladner or whatever, god help us.


Option 2: Drive to terminal, park and walk on:

$10 Gas on the Vancouver side
$24 parking (3 days at the place just outside BC Ferry land, best price, and they drive you to the door)
$54 Ferry
$5 gas - Victoria side

$93 round trip - this is what we normally do. If we are going for a longer time and parking adds up, Option 1 is preferred.

Time: 3.5hrs, door to door, very predictable since we never miss.


Option 3: Drive!

$10 Gas on Vancouver side
$144 Ferry (vehicle, driver, passenger) or $99 for motorcycle
$5 gas on Victoria side

Total: $159 round trip, $114 for motorcycle.
With reservations: $194 for car, $149 for motorcycle.

Time: 3.5hrs ideally, or with reservations. Otherwise maybe 4.5hrs to account for getting there early enough.


Option 4, Helijet:

$10 Skytrain
$556 - $139/person (this is the Super-Saver fare, regular is $229 or $249)
$2 Gas on Victoria Side

$568 round trip.
Time: 1.5 hrs, getting down to the terminal last minute, etc. Maybe 2hrs is more realistic.


Option 5, New Fast Ferry:
$10 Skytrain
$200 Ferry
$2 Gas in Victoria

$222 round trip.
Time: 2.5hrs, max, assuming a 90 min crossing.

I decided to work this out during this post, so this might not all be perfect, but what's the point here? I'd take this proposed ferry over driving virtually any day. People who say "just fly" I don't think understand the actual cost.

Many businesses would force their people to take this ferry rather than fly. How about our politicians spending our tax dollars? Better believe there will be pressure for them to take the ferry, especially in these economic times.

[cornholio]

This just doesnt make sense too me.

It would seem to me to be better to get some larger seaplanes that can carry more passengers and lower their prices. Im sure there is enough demand to be able to lower the price range to $50 or even less for a flight from downtown to downtown if you can modernize the fleet and get some larger planes designed.

[djh]

^^
In Option 4 - Helijet, is that the return far for 4 people?
In Option 5 - new ferry, isn't that the one-way far for 4 people?

Just checking.

[Yume-sama]

I was all for this, since I don't like helicopters or small planes or the long wait for the ferry.

Then I realized I'd have to walk when I got to Victoria...

[SpongeG]

there are also seaplane flights besides helijet and they are cheaper - i think you can do it for likr $200 return

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by djh

^^
In Option 4 - Helijet, is that the return far for 4 people?
In Option 5 - new ferry, isn't that the one-way far for 4 people?

Just checking.

My costing was based on return for 2 people (one-way for 4 would be the same). Helijet pricing came from helijet.com, they have all kinds of rates, I was only assuming they were all one-way, since they didn't say.

[jlousa]

This idea is doomed for failure, the only way this service can happen is via BC ferry, no one has deep enough pockets to make a go of this, at best this thing can break even operational but never cover capital costs.

[wrenegade]

This is a nice idea, but I don't think there is the market for it. For business and/or government types it doesn't make sense. They will always fly, be it seaplane or helijet. With the Canada Line opening soon it will be easier and a little faster to take public transit to the ferry, although it does leave quite a slog to downtown Victoria on the other side.

However, a option that no one mentioned is taking a charter bus on the ferry, and then onto downtown victoria. A little faster than public transit, more comfortable, and not nearly approaching driving costs.

I like the idea, but I don't think the market is there yet. Maybe seasonal summer service could work, but as Jlousa said, there is still the issue of the large capital cost. Also, with a 90 minute sailing, does anyone know what the average speed would have to be? These are going to have to be some pretty impressive (see: costly) boats.

With regards to speed, would leaving from False Creek be any faster you think? You aren't going to get the business crowd anyways, so if you can save 10 mins or so, I think it would be worth it.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by awvan

This is a nice idea, but I don't think there is the market for it. For business and/or government types it doesn't make sense. They will always fly, be it seaplane or helijet. With the Canada Line opening soon it will be easier and a little faster to take public transit to the ferry, although it does leave quite a slog to downtown Victoria on the other side.

However, a option that no one mentioned is taking a charter bus on the ferry, and then onto downtown victoria. A little faster than public transit, more comfortable, and not nearly approaching driving costs.

I like the idea, but I don't think the market is there yet. Maybe seasonal summer service could work, but as Jlousa said, there is still the issue of the large capital cost. Also, with a 90 minute sailing, does anyone know what the average speed would have to be? These are going to have to be some pretty impressive (see: costly) boats.

With regards to speed, would leaving from False Creek be any faster you think? You aren't going to get the business crowd anyways, so if you can save 10 mins or so, I think it would be worth it.

The boats would look something like this....far too big for False Creek.

[johnjimbc]

I don't really see how the Canada Line helps too much on the ferry. So you basically would take the Canada Line to the airport, and then still need to get a bus to the ferry. All you are doing is adding an additional form of transportation - very cumbersome.

If I could take a 90-minute ferry ride for $100 round-trip (or even $150) versus nearly $400 for round-trip on seaplane or helijet, I'd do it for every trip. I think a lot of companies would as well.

You may be right that it won't work, but I just don't see the failure as a given. It just doesn't make sense there is no passenger ferry connecting the two downtown areas. It seems like a no-brainer that there ought to be. I think the demand is there. People are taking planes now and paying pretty hefty fees to do so on a routine basis. I think the ferries might prove more cost-efficient and more comfortable. It really wouldn't be that much different, just cheaper and a few minutes longer (not even that much longer really, by the time you consider check-in and all for the plane).

The start-up costs are great, but once the service is established I think it could be a very successful venture.

[jlousa]

$400 return on the seaplane? Maybe if you're a tourist, anyone that does the trip frequently on business can do it for ~$250, I know in my line of work they won't be paying to fly me out if I didn't need to be there right away, not some 90min later depending on sailing, with the seaplanes there is one leaving almost all the time during the day no need to wait for the next sailing. There is a market for this product no doubt, just not one that can support a business.

[johnjimbc]

Don't you have to get an extra ticket to bring your enormous ego along with you? Did you have to run the numbers again this afternoon or is it just an instinctive gift?

Jlousa has spoken. It's a failure before the first run.

Can the mods just delete this entire fruitless discussion now?