London Roads

[haljackey]

Ya I thought of a similar idea a long way back. Only difference is it connected to 401/403, not 7/8.

Both connections would be a huge asset and would aid both London commuters and long-distance travelers. A win-win for all.

[Symz]

Wow, someone really dropped the ball when it came to road planning for the greater London area eh? I've only visited London, but I have heard a few times from other people that have lived in London that driving around in London is terrible and I didn't even have to ask! They just state it as fact that getting anywhere in London is a tedious process.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Symz

Wow, someone really dropped the ball when it came to road planning for the greater London area eh? I've only visited London, but I have heard a few times from other people that have lived in London that driving around in London is terrible and I didn't even have to ask! They just state it as fact that getting anywhere in London is a tedious process.

Yes. There are parts of London during rush hour that are as congested as parts of Downtown Toronto. It doesn't need to be that way.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Yes. There are parts of London during rush hour that are as congested as parts of Downtown Toronto. It doesn't need to be that way.

This is true. I was traveling through downtown Toronto a couple weeks ago and felt like I was driving in my hometown.

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A bit of potential relief though, as the city may study building a new rail overpass for the CP line on Adelaide near oxford.

Article here: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2.../19006481.html

This should have been done 60 years ago. With the length these studies, proposals, plans take, it will probably be another 20 before the thing is constructed if it was approved today.

[Symz]

Originally Posted by haljackey

This is true. I was traveling through downtown Toronto a couple weeks ago and felt like I was driving in my hometown.

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A bit of potential relief though, as the city may study building a new rail overpass for the CP line on Adelaide near oxford.

Article here: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2.../19006481.html

This should have been done 60 years ago. With the length these studies, proposals, plans take, it will probably be another 20 before the thing is constructed if it was approved today.

Windsor is the new owner of 2 new rail overpasses on Walker & Howard roads and it is such a huge difference in quality of life for drivers. We were in the same situation, 'it should have been done many years ago'.

I hope this project goes through for London, it's atleast a step in the right direction.

You could still use a ring road/northern bypass.

[Blitz]

That's an interesting map, haljackey. I bet that's close to how London would look if it was a city in the U.S., where they actually see value in local expressways.

London is the absolute worst for traffic (for its size). So frustrating. Windsor has no traffic problems at all, and I didn't experience too many in Kitchener when I used to work there (although there were some bad days).

[MrSlippery519]

That should have been done years ago as many others would agree, what I do not understand is why would a $200,000 study need to be done to determine where to put the overpass and what it would affect in the area?? I am sure they have done studies in the past for the exact same overpass.

Just by looking at the area an overpass should be no problem at all, the only thing it could effect is one walkway into the park. That money for a study could go a lot further to pay to get the job done.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Blitz

That's an interesting map, haljackey. I bet that's close to how London would look if it was a city in the U.S., where they actually see value in local expressways.

London is the absolute worst for traffic (for its size). So frustrating. Windsor has no traffic problems at all, and I didn't experience too many in Kitchener when I used to work there (although there were some bad days).

Both comments are true. Windsor moves traffic quite well, which is crazy because there's both local traffic and border traffic on its streets.

Regarding Kitchener/Waterloo, they have traffic issues too. This mostly because their road system is a mess and just about everything heading to the 401 uses Highway 8 (King Street/King Street Bypass). That means this road is clogged all the time with backups sometimes reaching as far as the 401.

Kitchener CMA is also growing a lot more, but road expansions are being put in place to handle it, something London doesn't do very often. The widening of Highway 8 to 8 lanes and the eventual full grade-separation of the 8/401 interchange will help things though.

In London less traffic goes on the 401 and we have more interchanges. While more convenient none of them are grade-separated (with the exception of 401/VMP which doesn't cut it because there's intersections on the VMP).

London's northern ring road is a pipe dream now. Rail grade-separations are the only way to aid traffic in the city along with costly road-widenings.

Double left turn lanes as I mentioned before can also really aid traffic flow, but they can only be built where there's room, and most intersections have no additional right of way for them.

[manny_santos]

As for railway overpasses, I believe that the Adelaide overpass is the one that is needed the most. The reason for this is the close proximity to the CP Rail yard.

I would place Richmond as a close second, only because it is further away from the CP yard than Adelaide but is arguably of equal, if not greater importance to the city's transportation network to Adelaide.

However, given the pedestrian-oriented nature of that section of Richmond, I would argue that a subway under the railway would be a better idea. I would also bet that would be more costly than putting in a modular overpass that can be built off-site.

An overpass is not warranted at Clarke and Oxford, as there are only five trains per day going through there, and at least two of them are VIA trains which tend to move faster than long freight trains on their way out of a yard.

[haljackey]

Think London drivers could handle this?



Instead of pushing for roundabouts we could be pushing for these things called turbopleins!

[ssiguy]

You're map of the 402 is what was originally planned.
When the 402 extension from Sarnia to London was first conceived there was no intention of heading south past Strathroy. The route was suppose to run relatively the same and run just 1 or 2 km north of Fanshawe Park Road/ HWY #22 all the way past London and connect with the current 403 at Woodstock.
The ONLY reason it didn't was due to politics.
The route would have passed Labatt's house and come too close to London's affluent and influential {read bribes} North End.
Even in the 1970s before they started to buy land for the Strathroy to 401 south of London alignment there was a strong movement to take the northern route as originally planned.
Now, of course, that is completely impossible with all the new residential/commercial development north of Fanshawe Park Road. I know this as I was born and raised in Strathroy and my father was a member of the town council and they did not want the southern alignment but he said it was chosen for no other reason than political "persuasion".

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Think London drivers could handle this?

I doubt it, since most Londoners are still grappling with the concept of a signalized intersection. Already twice this week I've seen people blow through the Windermere/Richmond intersection when the left turn signal lit up... the loud protestations of drivers turning north onto Richmond did nothing to deter them. Funnily enough both the offenders were driving Dodge Caravans, which actually explains a lot

Originally Posted by manny_santos

However, given the pedestrian-oriented nature of that section of Richmond, I would argue that a subway under the railway would be a better idea. I would also bet that would be more costly than putting in a modular overpass that can be built off-site.

I think any solution to the Richmond/Oxford railway problem will be extremely difficult to implement. First of all, the railway is graded with the street. There's absolutely no embankment to speak of, and no room to build one, which means no easy street subway solution. An overpass would just make a mess of everything and completely wreck the intersection. To build an underpass you'd have to dig up the road and make a huge trench that goes under the railway, with sidewalks on top, kinda like what we have at Richmond and York, which would be very disruptive and very expensive.

Either way you'd also have to create a detour for one of the city's busiest arterials and two of its most heavily used bus routes, which would cause chaos for a couple of months. It's a huge undertaking and not likely to be something city hall is willing to tackle in the near future. Although I agree wholeheartedly with the Adelaide overpass, it really cannot wait any longer.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Wharn

I think any solution to the Richmond/Oxford railway problem will be extremely difficult to implement. First of all, the railway is graded with the street. There's absolutely no embankment to speak of, and no room to build one, which means no easy street subway solution. An overpass would just make a mess of everything and completely wreck the intersection. To build an underpass you'd have to dig up the road and make a huge trench that goes under the railway, with sidewalks on top, kinda like what we have at Richmond and York, which would be very disruptive and very expensive.

Either way you'd also have to create a detour for one of the city's busiest arterials and two of its most heavily used bus routes, which would cause chaos for a couple of months. It's a huge undertaking and not likely to be something city hall is willing to tackle in the near future. Although I agree wholeheartedly with the Adelaide overpass, it really cannot wait any longer.

There is another solution:

- CP could lower the grade of the railway between Talbot Street and Waterloo Street. In theory the track could be lowered to about 3.5 metres (11.5 feet) below Richmond Street, assuming CP Rail used an average grade of 1% downhill heading eastward between Talbot and Richmond and 1% uphill heading eastward between Richmond and Waterloo.

- An overpass would still be required, but far less tall than what would be required right now. If we assume an overpass normally being 20 feet high, an overpass in this scenario could be as low as 8.5 feet (2.6 metres) high. Such an overpass could be built off-site, allowing Richmond to remain open for most of the construction time, and moved into place when it is ready.

- The majority of the disruption in this case would be to CP Rail. They would have to close the railway between the London yard and Windsor for long enough to rip up the railway through the Richmond Street zone, dig a trench and build retaining walls east and west of Richmond Street, and then once the overpass is in place, extend the trench through the overpass and then lay new railroad tracks.

In this case, the intersection of Richmond and Piccadilly would have to be closed, and the crossing on St. George St. would likely have to be closed. From an engineering standpoint this would be very interesting.

With regards to Adelaide St, I would speculate that the intersections of Adelaide and Pall Mall, and Adelaide and the west branch of Central will have to be raised, and the intersection of Adelaide and the east branch of Central will have to be closed.

[Blitz]

Regarding Kitchener/Waterloo, they have traffic issues too. This mostly because their road system is a mess and just about everything heading to the 401 uses Highway 8 (King Street/King Street Bypass). That means this road is clogged all the time with backups sometimes reaching as far as the 401.

That interchange is really annoying, when you're coming from London there's no direct connection to Highway 8 from Highway 401. But if you're coming from Toronto, there is a connection. So you're saying there are plans to eventually fix this?

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Blitz

That interchange is really annoying, when you're coming from London there's no direct connection to Highway 8 from Highway 401. But if you're coming from Toronto, there is a connection. So you're saying there are plans to eventually fix this?

Yes. I don't want to go off topic but here's a pic of the full interchange in Kitchener.

[Simpseatles]

^Awesome! I'd love to see an interchange like that in London (VMP/401?), but it'll probably never happen.

[Kokkei Mizu]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

- The majority of the disruption in this case would be to CP Rail. They would have to close the railway between the London yard and Windsor for long enough to rip up the railway through the Richmond Street zone, dig a trench and build retaining walls east and west of Richmond Street, and then once the overpass is in place, extend the trench through the overpass and then lay new railroad tracks.

CP would never allow this. That line provides CP a connection between Toronto and Detroit, Chicago and the Midwest US. It has over 20 trains a day... Unless a bypass track was built (possibly north or south of London) to temporarily re-route the train, however, that would add millions to the construction costs.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by Kokkei Mizu

CP would never allow this. That line provides CP a connection between Toronto and Detroit, Chicago and the Midwest US. It has over 20 trains a day... Unless a bypass track was built (possibly north or south of London) to temporarily re-route the train, however, that would add millions to the construction costs.

Agreed. There is absolutely no way in hell CP would ever agree to something like this, and if the city coerced them into doing it they would fight it in court and would probably win. Ripping up and rebuilding a railway, especially over that kind of distance, will cost a lot more than the equivalent job for a road.

[haljackey]

The new Sarnia Road bridge opens later today (officially at 4pm).

Although it won't be finished. I don't have a recent picture but I would assume it would only carry one lane per direction while construction stops for the winter. Then it's back to work in the spring!

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Agreed. There is absolutely no way in hell CP would ever agree to something like this, and if the city coerced them into doing it they would fight it in court and would probably win. Ripping up and rebuilding a railway, especially over that kind of distance, will cost a lot more than the equivalent job for a road.

Absolutely agree with you on this. It would be cheaper to build a new parallel track around the outskirts of London than to do the Richmond & Adelaide crossings. City wants it to happen, but I really wish they'd look into a diversion to the north of London for the CP tracks.

Wouldn't be THAT hard to do: http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid=2...13155,0.445976 It does add 6 km onto the total track length however.