Salt Lake International Airport Development Thread - Page 84

ucsbgaucho · #**1661** Posted **Aug 7, 2023, 2:17 PM**

They've tried commercial service in Ogden many times, most recently with Allegiant and Avelo, and both lasted only about a year before pulling out of the airport. I don't see any expansion there for a long time, any airline that comes in is getting lots of financial incentives to do so, and as soon as those run out it becomes unviable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jbash

To be completely honest, this isn't the worst news possible. This situation should only incentivise expansion of Airport services in Ogden and Provo. Provo could be international by the end of the decade, and Ogden by the end of next decade, if they begin to pursue expansion (as has been rumored in the past). Having 2 new international airports on the Wasatch Front can ease the burden on SLC by absorbing domestic flights as well as shorter international flights, so that SLC can have the breathing room to expand their international offerings without burdening their airspace. As a bonus, this could also provide an incentive to better connect the 3 cities with more reliable, and faster, transit. The wasatch front will continue to grow as both a community of residents and as an international destination, and having 3 international airports in one urban area can connect the region in a way that we haven't seen yet. By 2050, I'd love to see both Provo and Ogden with mass local transit, connected to a higher speed regional system, and this could be facilitated by the future expansion of these cities airports and the ensuing need to move large amounts of people around. Idk, just some random thoughts

Atlas · #**1662** Posted **Aug 7, 2023, 3:13 PM**

My experience is that most people in Ogden don't even know that the airport is there. With some investment, on the order of what has recently been done in Provo, I think it could be more viable for passenger services.

RC14 · #**1663** Posted **Aug 8, 2023, 1:08 AM**

I think Ogden and the Ogden airport have allot of potential. It wouldn't be difficult to build a street car or LRT line from the Ogden airport to union station and it would probably be about a 5min ride with no stops or at grade crossings as the rail ROW already exists to do that.

Ogden could build an extremely accessible and walkable city around Union station and 25th street. You could fly into Ogden airport and take the streetcar/LRT to Union station or just get off a future Amtrak train at Union station and the city would be there at your feet. The area could be developed so that you could simply walk everywhere the whole time you're there and you wouldn't have to worry about rental cars or transit.

Ogden was originally built around rail. It has great bones. Unfortunately, none of what it has is being used.

Provo Airport could also be easily connected to downtown Provo as you could pretty much just run East/West down Center street.

That being said, Salt Lake International is also very convenient to Downtown and the University of Utah and I don't feel like that fact has been exploited to it's full potential either. Especially at the state level. It makes no sense to be putting so much, in terms of recourses, into the prison site when Salt Lake International is right there. You have the new prison, now conveniently located by the airport. Yet, we are trying to build a tech hub at the opposite end of the valley.

Just my 2 cents.

Comrade · #**1664** Posted **Aug 8, 2023, 2:24 AM**

Commercial travel just doesn't make sense in Ogden. It makes a bit more sense in Utah County because of the size and distance from Salt Lake City International.

But it's only a 26 mile drive from Layton to SLC - or 14 miles from Bountiful.

Lehi to SLC is 33 miles - and that's the most northern Utah County 'larger' community. Orem to SLC is 44 miles. Provo 50 miles.

Even Ogden to SLC only hits 44 miles.

If you're in Layton, or Bountiful or Farmington or North Salt Lake, it just makes sense to drive to SLC International.

Provo? Orem? There's a bit more incentive to go to Provo if specific flights are offered due to the distance since SLC is all the way up at the northern-tip of Salt Lake County.

bob rulz · #**1665** Posted **Aug 8, 2023, 2:13 PM**

Provo is also more of a hub than Ogden. Between BYU and Silicon Slopes, Provo is simply much closer than Ogden to the places that people are most likely to fly to. Utah County also has a bigger and faster growing population than Weber County.

I could see Ogden getting a few flights here and there. But I agree that it's hard to see them sustaining much commercial travel for a while.

What surprises me is that Logan-Cache Airport doesn't have any commercial service.

Paniolo Man · #**1666** Posted **Aug 8, 2023, 5:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Provo is also more of a hub than Ogden. Between BYU and Silicon Slopes, Provo is simply much closer than Ogden to the places that people are most likely to fly to. Utah County also has a bigger and faster growing population than Weber County.

I could see Ogden getting a few flights here and there. But I agree that it's hard to see them sustaining much commercial travel for a while.

What surprises me is that Logan-Cache Airport doesn't have any commercial service.

They've had a terminal planned for years, they just have yet to find an airline.

Perhaps Logan can leverage Ogden's misfortune to attract an airline.

ucsbgaucho · #**1667** Posted **Aug 9, 2023, 2:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paniolo Man

They've had a terminal planned for years, they just have yet to find an airline.

Perhaps Logan can leverage Ogden's misfortune to attract an airline.

Logan and Ogden have the same problem, they'd commit tax breaks and other perks to lure an airline, and make a big splash about it (while avoiding the obvious that the airline has probably been given so many perks, it's not costing them hardly anything to bring flights), but as soon as those incentives expire, that airline is gone. They won't get any commercial airline to commit to a long term deal.

Allegiant had service to Ogden but dropped it, and at the same time announced a bigger commitment to Provo. Avelo only had a flight to Burbank.

Here's an excerpt of the article back in 2022 about the airlines pulling out. Sounds like Ogden has some geographical limitations that affect commercial service.
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The skeptics said that some airlines shun flying to Ogden because of a key runway’s proximity to the local mountain ranges. “They are not willing to do ‘circle to land'” to work around the impediment, Ed McKenney, president of the Ogden Regional Airport Association, said in a recent interview.

He said losing both airlines may bring into question the $1 million per year through 2027 that the airport is scheduled to receive from the FAA for improvements of airport facilities.

“This is a continuation of Ogden’s spending millions to attract and fund the airlines when there are significant safety and business reasons why the airlines have no interest in doing business with Ogden City,” McKenney said.

ucsbgaucho · #**1668** Posted **Aug 9, 2023, 2:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Provo is also more of a hub than Ogden. Between BYU and Silicon Slopes, Provo is simply much closer than Ogden to the places that people are most likely to fly to. Utah County also has a bigger and faster growing population than Weber County.

I could see Ogden getting a few flights here and there. But I agree that it's hard to see them sustaining much commercial travel for a while.

What surprises me is that Logan-Cache Airport doesn't have any commercial service.

I think too the problem with Ogden is there's really nothing north of Ogden. I live in Layton, it's the same drive to Ogden as it is to SLC, about 25 minutes. So Ogden is not "central" to a population base, it's the northern end, so until there's substantial growth to the north of Ogden, both residential and commercial, there's just not enough reason to make Ogden a functional commercial airport. Provo on the other hand has quite a bit of Utah county to its south, and everything from Point of the Mountain south is closer to Provo than to SLC.

airhero · #**1669** Posted **Aug 10, 2023, 3:10 PM**

There are about as many people living closer to Ogden than Salt Lake as those living closer to Provo than Salt Lake, whether you're talking about a miles radius of 10, 25, 50, 100, etc... That's assuming parts of Bluffdale and everything south of Bluffdale are closer to Provo, and everything north of Farmington is closer to Ogden. That's especially true for the Ogden Airport, which is south of Ogden.

I'm not sure how Layton could be considered 25 minutes from Ogden. Bountiful to Ogden, a drive I made all the time when I was younger, and still do on occasion, is about 25 minutes outside of rush hour, max 30.

Maybe Provo has a slight advantage because some residents in South Salt Lake County don't live much farther from the Provo airport than SLC international. Then again, far more people in Salt Lake County live closer to Ogden than Provo (although many live much, much closer to SLC than Ogden). So it could be sort of considered a wash in terms of population.

In terms of centers of employment and education, yeah I guess Provo has a leg up there.

There are a lot of other things that influence this as well. I have flown out of Provo rather than Salt Lake even though it is significantly farther for me because it has a few direct connections to cities I frequent, and flying out of Provo Airport is usually a much smoother, easier process than flying from SLC, as well as cheaper. Breeze has been a godsend for me, and no complaints (so far).

I wouldn't be surprised if Ogden provided similar services in the future, but it may be far down the line. Too bad about the takeoff and landing difficulties. I wonder if there is any hope for a runway realignment.

Atlas · #**1670** Posted **Aug 10, 2023, 4:49 PM**

Comparing the Ogden and Provo metros in a vacuum, they have similar populations and growth rates with an edge to Provo in both categories. Don't sleep on Weber County's growth potential though: there are huge tracts of land west of Ogden that are being master planned right now. Utah County seems to have more money than Weber/Davis Counties though, probably due to BYU and the larger tech presence (shared with SL County). SLC International and downtown are on the north side of the SL Valley, so in that sense SLC is closer to Ogden than to Provo.

Ogden Regional is proximal to Hill AFB, so along with the mountains I could see that being a barrier to scaling up air traffic. Other than that though, with some investment like Provo has had, I think the people of Ogden would be able to support some commercial activity. Provo airport probably has the same issues with nearby mountains.

RC14 · #**1671** Posted **Aug 10, 2023, 6:24 PM**

I would also point out that while Utah County has a higher population than Weber, Ogden has allot of farm and rural areas to the north going up into Idaho. Whereas, south of Provo is mostly empty until you get to Iron and Washington counties and both of those counties have their own airports with commercial service.

As far as the limitations of the airport itself, I have been wondering if there is enough empty space in the old rail yard behind Union Station and the surrounding area to build a new airport there? Especially if the cross streets were moved underground. That area sits at a lower elevation than the surrounding area though so I don't know if that would be an issue?

Paniolo Man · #**1672** Posted **Aug 10, 2023, 7:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC14

I would also point out that while Utah County has a higher population than Weber, Ogden has allot of farm and rural areas to the north going up into Idaho. Whereas, south of Provo is mostly empty until you get to Iron and Washington counties and both of those counties have their own airports with commercial service.

As far as the limitations of the airport itself, I have been wondering if there is enough empty space in the old rail yard behind Union Station and the surrounding area to build a new airport there? Especially if the cross streets were moved underground. That area sits at a lower elevation than the surrounding area though so I don't know if that would be an issue?

I believe Logan has a clearer advantage with it's relative position closer to a lot of rural areas in Idaho and Wyoming, and being much further from SLC. But If another airport were needed in the Ogden area, I would unironically propose using Hill AFB for commercial flights. Plenty of air bases share with commercial airports.