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  #41  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2012, 7:27 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Somehow, I can't help but think that any plan to put a tram or LRT line down Rideau and Montréal would have led to massive opposition (both residents and businesses), especially west of St. Laurent Blvd.

Such a line wouldn't directly serve most of the former base anyway; an alignment via King Edward, St. Patrick, Beechwood and Hemlock would (and would be easier to construct as well) but I'm sure it too would run into a mass of opposition.

Given the bizarre original proposal for Rockcliffe and that it wouldn't have been directly served by LRT anyway, perhaps the various cancellations were a blessing in disguise. There's still an opportunity to plan for a true TOD community based around a Beechwood-Hemlock alignment
I thought the original intent was to run a branch line into the Rockcliffe development from Montreal Road.
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  #42  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2012, 7:30 PM
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Seems to me that this is not the time for more master plans. Between government cuts and countless other plans/projects (Lansdowne, Le Breton, East TOD, Carling-Bayview TOD, Tunney’s...) and of course the lack of any sort of transit plans on the Montreal Road corridor (buses are an OK, cheap answer, trams would be expensive, no faster than buses and probably would not have much more capacity).

Leave CFB Rockliffe alone for a few more decades until we have all other important pieces in place.
Trams on Montreal Road would be faster if they ran in reserved lanes. We have to have the courage to eliminate on-street parking. In the long run, this will deliver more customers to businesses in Vanier anyways.
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  #43  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2012, 7:52 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I thought the original intent was to run a branch line into the Rockcliffe development from Montreal Road.
The mayor's (O'Brien) task force of 2007(?) had suggested it, but nobody else had ever talk about it (as far as I know).

As for the Trams on Montreal, I think dedicated bus lanes would do pretty much the same as trams on dedicated lanes, but with slightly lower capacity. I still believe the best long term solution is a subway.
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  #44  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2012, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I thought the original intent was to run a branch line into the Rockcliffe development from Montreal Road.
J.OT13 is correct - only the Mayor's Task Force proposed the idea as a branch line out of the downtown tunnel. I can't tell whether it was to be surface or sub-surface since it is only on the diagrams; the text only mentions building a spur in the tunnel itself for a connection to CFB Rockcliffe, not the nature of the rest of the connection.

The routing in the 2003 TMP and ORTEP both follow Montréal Road alone and turn south in the corridor west of Blair Rd.
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  #45  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2012, 2:40 AM
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Bring back streetcar line no.1

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I have to agree with McC. Another mistake in developing our revised Transportation Master Plan. It was like those involved in developing the new plan believed that there was no wisdom in the previous plan. Maybe this will limit the amount of intensification that can be implemented on the site to avoid overwhelming all the roads in the area. Our plans to make it a transit oriented community are going to be limited by the current TMP. That will be a sad turn of events.

Our efforts to create a transit oriented suburb have already been destroyed. It looks like the same for one of the few urban locations that we can develop from scratch. Larry O'Brien's legacy will last for generations.
Old Ottawa South and the Lindenlea (Rockliffe Park) are both streetcar suburbs of 100 years ago that were at each end of streetcar line no. 1 (the one that went to Lansdowne Park). I think that Ottawa residents were much better of in those days because most lived just a block or two from public transportation.

Streetcar line no. 1 went all the way up Bank St from Sunnyside, then travelled on Sparks or Queen, then Rideau, Dalhousie, St.Patrick and Beechwood and travelled as far as Acacia, near the Beechwood Cemetery.

What's wrong with bringing streetcars back? They are certainly not any slower than cars and are more comfortable and ecologically friendly than buses.

Such a line would keep on going on Beechwood down Hemlock to St Laurent and the former Rockliffe Air Force Base and maybe even to Montreal Rd.

What's wrong with that?
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  #46  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2012, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by KHOOLE View Post
Old Ottawa South and the Lindenlea (Rockliffe Park) are both streetcar suburbs of 100 years ago that were at each end of streetcar line no. 1 (the one that went to Lansdowne Park). I think that Ottawa residents were much better of in those days because most lived just a block or two from public transportation.

Streetcar line no. 1 went all the way up Bank St from Sunnyside, then travelled on Sparks or Queen, then Rideau, Dalhousie, St.Patrick and Beechwood and travelled as far as Acacia, near the Beechwood Cemetery.

What's wrong with bringing streetcars back? They are certainly not any slower than cars and are more comfortable and ecologically friendly than buses.

Such a line would keep on going on Beechwood down Hemlock to St Laurent and the former Rockliffe Air Force Base and maybe even to Montreal Rd.

What's wrong with that?
I strongly believe we should have kept the streetcars, but we took em' out in 58' and it probably cost us around 50 million (guessing, not based on facts) do so. In those 64 years without streetcars, we went from the size of Kingston to a major metropolis, 10 times larger. So I don't think it would be wise to invest billions in reinstating a system we took out over half a century ago, adding little capacity to our transit system.
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  #47  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2012, 6:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Somehow, I can't help but think that any plan to put a tram or LRT line down Rideau and Montréal would have led to massive opposition (both residents and businesses), especially west of St. Laurent Blvd.
You don't need to run a line down Rideau and Montreal.
All you have to do is run a connector line up Bathgate and Burma and you could pick up all the Rockcliffe, Cite, NRC traffic and connect it to the transitway at Blair. Could be a connector bus or a tram. Just has to be frequent.
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  #48  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2012, 6:32 AM
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Downtown LRT does not add capacity

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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
I strongly believe we should have kept the streetcars, but we took em' out in 58' and it probably cost us around 50 million (guessing, not based on facts) do so. In those 64 years without streetcars, we went from the size of Kingston to a major metropolis, 10 times larger. So I don't think it would be wise to invest billions in reinstating a system we took out over half a century ago, adding little capacity to our transit system.
The proposed 2.1 billion dollars downtown tunnel is simply replacing the present Transitway system with a LRT line. What "capacity" is being added to the transit sytem for 2.1 billion dollars? BTW, that's 2,100 million dollars!
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  #49  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2012, 3:18 PM
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Off-topic discussion in 3...2...1. Please stop rehashing old arguments in different threads!
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  #50  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2012, 3:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rakerman View Post
You don't need to run a line down Rideau and Montreal.
All you have to do is run a connector line up Bathgate and Burma and you could pick up all the Rockcliffe, Cite, NRC traffic and connect it to the transitway at Blair. Could be a connector bus or a tram. Just has to be frequent.
More likely OCTranspo will simply extend/reroute and increase the frequency on route 129. I seem to remember its predecessor the 198 used to feed into that area.

I doubt the city will create a new route just to service that neighbourhood.
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  #51  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2012, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by KHOOLE View Post
The proposed 2.1 billion dollars downtown tunnel is simply replacing the present Transitway system with a LRT line. What "capacity" is being added to the transit sytem for 2.1 billion dollars? BTW, that's 2,100 million dollars!
Bus vs. ORT capacities;

Bus; 1 bus every 30 seconds (and that’s stretching it) with 100 people per bus;

90 buses x 100 people = 9,000 phpd

ORT; initial max capacity - 1 train every 2 minutes, 1 train will initially contain 4 cars, 200 people per car, so 800 people per train;

30 trains x 800 people = 24,000 phpd

ORT; extended platforms and automated; 1 train 1 m 30 s, 1 train containing 5 cars, 200 people per car, so 1000 people per train;

40 trains x 1000 people = 40,000 phpd


So yes, the capacity will greatly be increased and the 2.1 billion, as well as future investement in the ORT is fully justified; we are finnaly starting to catch up to the other big Canadian cities.

Quote:
Originally posted by rakerman

You don't need to run a line down Rideau and Montreal.
All you have to do is run a connector line up Bathgate and Burma and you could pick up all the Rockcliffe, Cite, NRC traffic and connect it to the transitway at Blair. Could be a connector bus or a tram. Just has to be frequent.
That would be an OK (but very expensive) solution for CFB Rockliffe, but that would create another transfer (as opposed to a Rideau-Montreal subway). Furthermore, by not building the Bank-Rideau-Montreal subway, you leave massive, high density and high potential dead zones like Vanier, the east part of Rideau (although they will still build around east Rideau, the road will end up over capacity), Centertown, Lansdowne, and Old Ottawa south.


What I don' understand is why did they not use the old base as social housing (in the old existing houses) for a few decades while they sorted out the whole lack of transportation.

Last edited by J.OT13; Nov 11, 2012 at 6:00 PM.
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  #52  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2012, 1:29 AM
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What I don' understand is why did they not use the old base as social housing (in the old existing houses) for a few decades while they sorted out the whole lack of transportation.
Someone once told me that some of those houses were being used for social housing until a couple years ago.

I agree that transportation needs to be better thought out for this neighbourhood. CFB Rockcliffe is a big development in an already developed area and it'll certainly increase car & bus traffic on the major roads around it.
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  #53  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2012, 2:12 AM
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Originally Posted by rakerman View Post
You don't need to run a line down Rideau and Montreal.
All you have to do is run a connector line up Bathgate and Burma and you could pick up all the Rockcliffe, Cite, NRC traffic and connect it to the transitway at Blair. Could be a connector bus or a tram. Just has to be frequent.
Well you could, but in so doing you've gone from a ~6.5 km trip (via Beechwood-Hemlock) to an 11 km one (to the Rideau Centre).
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  #54  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2012, 2:40 AM
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With the attitude of transit planners today, it is not about the shortest route for the passenger but the lowest cost. If it is cheaper to run transit to the closest rapid transit station, that is the way it will be. If it takes twice as long for the passenger to get to their destination and with additional transfers, oh well.
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  #55  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2012, 4:00 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Somehow, I can't help but think that any plan to put a tram or LRT line down Rideau and Montréal would have led to massive opposition (both residents and businesses), especially west of St. Laurent Blvd.
Bring it on.

Quote:
Such a line wouldn't directly serve most of the former base anyway; an alignment via King Edward, St. Patrick, Beechwood and Hemlock would (and would be easier to construct as well) but I'm sure it too would run into a mass of opposition.
Beechwood? The blue-hairs would riot.

Quote:
Given the bizarre original proposal for Rockcliffe and that it wouldn't have been directly served by LRT anyway, perhaps the various cancellations were a blessing in disguise. There's still an opportunity to plan for a true TOD community based around a Beechwood-Hemlock alignment
Indeed! A prime opprotunity to be wasted, like every other opportunity in Ottawa.

The former CFB Rockcliffe lands design was a god-awful suburban piece of crap. So the new version is almost bound to be 10 times worse, especially once the NIMBIES and green-space fetishists have their way with it.
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  #56  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2012, 4:04 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by rakerman View Post
You don't need to run a line down Rideau and Montreal.
All you have to do is run a connector line up Bathgate and Burma and you could pick up all the Rockcliffe, Cite, NRC traffic and connect it to the transitway at Blair. Could be a connector bus or a tram. Just has to be frequent.
Which doesn't do anything to serve natural desire-line traffic along the Montreal-Rideau axis.

But hey, we successfully cancelled any consideration of mass transit along this corridor, and chopped 15% of the bus runs to make Westboro happy, so it can't be all bad, can it? Keep on centring transit around the political wants of the suburbs, keep on screwing the near-east end of the city, and keep cramming the inner-city suckers into overcrowded, infrequent, badly-timed buses. Anything to avoid city-building, vision, and real solutions.
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  #57  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2012, 8:17 PM
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Big fire at an old school on the base:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Fi...464/story.html

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  #58  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2012, 9:53 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Leave CFB Rockliffe alone for a few more decades until we have all other important pieces in place.
Like Lebreton?
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  #59  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2012, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Like Lebreton?
I mean transit connections (rapid transit, not trams and/or buses) to the CFB and possibly the bridge. But yes, we might also be better off waiting for other redevelopment projects to be completed.
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  #60  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2012, 12:28 AM
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I saw this fire news at the Citizen. I should have known to look here first. That must/might be the school on the upper left.

It's a crappy shot but what the hell...

You could put a whole 'nother decent sized airport down there.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/2357560...ream/lightbox/





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Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey View Post
Big fire at an old school on the base:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Fi...464/story.html

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