General Suburban Updates

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by phil235

I actually see a fair bit of value in giving people choice of school systems within the publicly-funded system. There are differences in focus between the boards. For instance, the Catholic board tends to put more resources into educational assistants and special needs. Multiple schools within the same community makes sense from that perspective.

I don't think your comment on resources is accurate. All school boards operate under the same funding formula, so the other boards are not siphoning resources from the public system. French and Catholic schools in the suburbs operate under the same class size formulas and are just as likely to be bursting at the seams as public schools.

I think the legitimate point of contention is administrative overlap. There are lots of functions that could be consolidated without threatening Catholic or French education. There already is a fair bit of sharing of sports fields that works pretty well.

I disagree with having overlapping schools in the same community. It allows for socioeconomic segregation, whereas we should be encouraging all kids from the community regardless of background to be together in the same classroom to build social harmony and cohesiveness. It also reduces geographic efficiency because by having multiple school systems in parallel each school has to draw from a larger area to fill its classrooms, significantly reducing the number of kids who can walk to school. The neighbourhood school is a dying concept thanks to all this streaming of kids into separate classrooms.

I also disagree with having schools boards at all. I think all schools should just be run by the Ministry of Education directly, with each school having a defined school zone border, and if you live in that school's border, you go to that school. Every single kid from the same area goes to the same school, no ifs, ands, or buts.

If the Catholic schools have more resources for special needs as you claim, that's unfair to any special needs kids who aren't Catholic, because they basically have to choose between going to a school following a religion they don't believe in, or getting worse service. That's not fair.

It also provides an unfair job advantage to Roman Catholic teachers because they have have two school systems they can work at whereas other teachers only have one.

And you're wrong about the class size thing. The formula is partially fixed, partially per student. Because Catholic and French schools have smaller enrollments, they end up getting more schools. Notice how Ottawa has almost the same number of Catholic high schools as public high schools despite the public system having more than twice the number of students. Notice how in the Fernbank community, the OCDSB and OCSB are both getting the same number of schools (3 elementary and 1 secondary) despite OCDSB having more double the enrollment. The newer suburbs are full of areas where public school kids are forced to attend Catholic school because they have more schools in the area. Stittsville is only just getting its first public high school now, but they've had a Catholic high school since 1999. It's extremely unfair.

I support the immediate elimination of the Catholic school system, but if we can't do that, we can at least stop giving them unfair advantages.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I disagree with having overlapping schools in the same community. It allows for socioeconomic segregation, whereas we should be encouraging all kids from the community regardless of background to be together in the same classroom to build social harmony and cohesiveness. It also reduces geographic efficiency because by having multiple school systems in parallel each school has to draw from a larger area to fill its classrooms, significantly reducing the number of kids who can walk to school. The neighbourhood school is a dying concept thanks to all this streaming of kids into separate classrooms.

I also disagree with having schools boards at all. I think all schools should just be run by the Ministry of Education directly, with each school having a defined school zone border, and if you live in that school's border, you go to that school. Every single kid from the same area goes to the same school, no ifs, ands, or buts.

If the Catholic schools have more resources for special needs as you claim, that's unfair to any special needs kids who aren't Catholic, because they basically have to choose between going to a school following a religion they don't believe in, or getting worse service. That's not fair.

It also provides an unfair job advantage to Roman Catholic teachers because they have have two school systems they can work at whereas other teachers only have one.

And you're wrong about the class size thing. The formula is partially fixed, partially per student. Because Catholic and French schools have smaller enrollments, they end up getting more schools. Notice how Ottawa has almost the same number of Catholic high schools as public high schools despite the public system having more than twice the number of students. Notice how in the Fernbank community, the OCDSB and OCSB are both getting the same number of schools (3 elementary and 1 secondary) despite OCDSB having more double the enrollment. The newer suburbs are full of areas where public school kids are forced to attend Catholic school because they have more schools in the area. Stittsville is only just getting its first public high school now, but they've had a Catholic high school since 1999. It's extremely unfair.

I support the immediate elimination of the Catholic school system, but if we can't do that, we can at least stop giving them unfair advantages.

Well, in terms of numbers, the public board has 25 high schools versus 15 for the Catholic system, so it's not really the same number. The public board also has 117 elementary schools to the Catholic board's 69 schools, so the odds are that most people have a public school closer to them.

I'm also not sure that smaller schools are the big advantage that you suggest. They tend to have less resources, less extra-curriculars, less elaborate facilities etc. I have many teachers in my family, and some were adamant that elementary schools with 500+ kids were the ideal size. I never really bought that, but it's definitely a debatable proposition.

School boards have a fair bit of discretion as to the size of their schools. Have a look at the Toronto Public Board - they have chosen to go with smaller high schools than other boards, despite having higher enrollment. Likewise, in Southwestern Ontario, Catholic High Schools tend to be bigger than those in the public boards.

It is definitely true that independent school boards are going to make different choices about how they allocate resources. But I don't think that it is logical to conclude that means that the system is unfair. And it's definitely not a Catholic/Public issue - it really depends on the region and the board.

I agree with a lot of your points on public education. I just think that the real enemy of public education is the growing enrollment of private schools. And I think that the existence of the Catholic Board, with more emphasis on student wellness and values is helpful in providing another choice for people who are considering private schools. At least annecdotaly, Catholic schools are full of Muslim students and others who might have been in private schools otherwise.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I disagree with having overlapping schools in the same community. It allows for socioeconomic segregation, whereas we should be encouraging all kids from the community regardless of background to be together in the same classroom to build social harmony and cohesiveness. It also reduces geographic efficiency because by having multiple school systems in parallel each school has to draw from a larger area to fill its classrooms, significantly reducing the number of kids who can walk to school. The neighbourhood school is a dying concept thanks to all this streaming of kids into separate classrooms.

I also disagree with having schools boards at all. I think all schools should just be run by the Ministry of Education directly, with each school having a defined school zone border, and if you live in that school's border, you go to that school. Every single kid from the same area goes to the same school, no ifs, ands, or buts.

If the Catholic schools have more resources for special needs as you claim, that's unfair to any special needs kids who aren't Catholic, because they basically have to choose between going to a school following a religion they don't believe in, or getting worse service. That's not fair.

It also provides an unfair job advantage to Roman Catholic teachers because they have have two school systems they can work at whereas other teachers only have one.

And you're wrong about the class size thing. The formula is partially fixed, partially per student. Because Catholic and French schools have smaller enrollments, they end up getting more schools. Notice how Ottawa has almost the same number of Catholic high schools as public high schools despite the public system having more than twice the number of students. Notice how in the Fernbank community, the OCDSB and OCSB are both getting the same number of schools (3 elementary and 1 secondary) despite OCDSB having more double the enrollment. The newer suburbs are full of areas where public school kids are forced to attend Catholic school because they have more schools in the area. Stittsville is only just getting its first public high school now, but they've had a Catholic high school since 1999. It's extremely unfair.

I support the immediate elimination of the Catholic school system, but if we can't do that, we can at least stop giving them unfair advantages.

I would agree with these points, though the francophone schools must remain for constitutional and historical reasons, just like anglophone schools should remain in Quebec.

The difference between my neighbourhood in Gatineau and those of family members who live in Ottawa or other parts of Ontario is quite striking. In my area you basically have 98-99% of the kids who go to the same elementary school which is right in the middle of the neighbourhood. (We have few kids who go to English school here - things might be a bit different in an area like Aylmer.) Our school had zero school buses, which is very typical for francophone elementary schools in Gatineau. My kids who are teenagers today and are no longer at that school, basically know everyone who is roughly their age in the entire neighbourhood. And we as parents know a whole bunch of the parents too.

[Acajack]

Some time ago I also mentioned that as a result of Ontario having 4 school systems, my kids' cousins ended up having a way less diverse group of friends than mine, in spite of the fact that where we live is clearly less diverse than their cousins grew up.

The reason for this is that my nieces and nephews almost all went to French Catholic school, which comes with two barriers for most families from diverse backgrounds: the Catholic (or Christian) religion and all subjects except ESL taught in French.

This does not mean there isn't any diversity in Ontario French Catholic schools, but they tend to be the least diverse of that province's four school systems.

English public schools tend to be the most diverse in Ontario by far.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

English public schools tend to be the most diverse in Ontario by far.

I'm not sure that's always the case in the cities. I'm most familiar with the Glebe schools, but both Corpus Christi and Immaculata High School are far more diverse than their public counterparts, both from a socio-economic and racial perspective. That is a big part of the reason that my wife (who isn't Catholic) insisted on our kids going to the Catholic schools. That and the emphasis on values.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm not sure that's always the case in the cities. I'm most familiar with the Glebe schools, but both Corpus Christi and Immaculata High School are far more diverse than their public counterparts, both from a socio-economic and racial perspective. .

I guess there may some localized exceptions.

It's almost a meme among certain circles of bien pensant parents in Ottawa and also Toronto that the best way to isolate your kid from FOB ESL immigrant kids (without having to pay private school tuition) is to send them to French immersion in a Catholic school.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I guess there may some localized exceptions.

It's almost a meme among certain circles of bien pensant parents in Ottawa and also Toronto that the best way to isolate your kid from FOB ESL immigrant kids (without having to pay private school tuition) is to send them to French immersion in a Catholic school.

Catchment area has a lot to do with that, but I would guess that there are plenty of Catholic schools among the most diverse schools in the province. My brother's Catholic high school in Toronto is probably about 20% white.

There is probably a good amount of truth to the meme, but times do change. French immersion has clearly become a more academic stream in most boards, so anyone doing their research will figure that out.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would agree with these points, though the francophone schools must remain for constitutional and historical reasons, just like anglophone schools should remain in Quebec.

Yes, agreed. I didn't make the clear above, but I think that anglophone vs. francophone should be the only streaming permitted.

Originally Posted by Acajack

The difference between my neighbourhood in Gatineau and those of family members who live in Ottawa or other parts of Ontario is quite striking. In my area you basically have 98-99% of the kids who go to the same elementary school which is right in the middle of the neighbourhood. (We have few kids who go to English school here - things might be a bit different in an area like Aylmer.) Our school had zero school buses, which is very typical for francophone elementary schools in Gatineau. My kids who are teenagers today and are no longer at that school, basically know everyone who is roughly their age in the entire neighbourhood. And we as parents know a whole bunch of the parents too.

Ugh, that sounds amazing. I wish Ottawa was like that.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm not sure that's always the case in the cities. I'm most familiar with the Glebe schools, but both Corpus Christi and Immaculata High School are far more diverse than their public counterparts, both from a socio-economic and racial perspective. That is a big part of the reason that my wife (who isn't Catholic) insisted on our kids going to the Catholic schools. That and the emphasis on values.

You mean values like sending kids to anti-abortion rallies and teaching homophobia?

I don't like Joel Harden very much, but one thing I do agree with him on is his proposal that Catholic schools be banned from associating with pro-life or anti-LGBT organizations or causes. Publically funded schools cannot be promoting opposition to constitutionally guaranteed human rights.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by CityTech

You mean values like sending kids to anti-abortion rallies and teaching homophobia?

I don't like Joel Harden very much, but one thing I do agree with him on is his proposal that Catholic schools be banned from associating with pro-life or anti-LGBT organizations or causes. Publically funded schools cannot be promoting opposition to constitutionally guaranteed human rights.

No, the emphasis on values really has nothing to do with those issues.

The schools focus on "building character through hope, love, community, dignity of persons, excellence, justice, and stewardship for the environment". I can tell you that in 10+ years of my kids being Catholic schools, I have never seen the slightest hint of promoting homophobia. Quite the opposite. Same with pro-life, although I see that as being a much less clear cut issue.

I think that the public can have a very skewed idea of what is taught in Catholic schools. They follow the same curriculum as the public schools, and include courses on other religions as part of the required courseload.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by phil235

No, the emphasis on values really has nothing to do with those issues.

I can tell you that in 10+ years of my kids being Catholic schools, I have never seen the slightest hint of promoting homophobia. Quite the opposite. Same with pro-life, although I see that as being a different type of issue.

I think that the public can have a very skewed idea of what is taught in Catholic schools.

Uh....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...hool-1.4977546

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...oard-1.2852327

That's a lot more than a "slightest hint".

Or note how Catholic schools organize field trips for kids to go to the March for Life every year.

I know someone who was denied a job teaching at a Catholic school because she and her boyfriend live together and have a child without being married.

There needs to be a zero-tolerance policy for this sort of thing by Catholic schools. Government funding means having to respect government mandated human rights.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Uh....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...hool-1.4977546

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...oard-1.2852327

That's a lot more than a "slightest hint".

Or note how Catholic schools organize field trips for kids to go to the March for Life every year.

I know someone who was denied a job teaching at a Catholic school because she and her boyfriend live together and have a child without being married.

There needs to be a zero-tolerance policy for this sort of thing by Catholic schools. Government funding means having to respect government mandated human rights.

Both of your links seem to relate to restricting sexual material that is available to younger kids in schools (the book in the first instance continued to be available in middle schools and high schools). It was perhaps an overzealous response to parent complaints, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to call those examples of promoting homophobia.

I get that the media love to pick up on those types of stories, but I could give you tonnes of examples of lessons about diversity and acceptance (two of the values I was referring to). I haven't had any concerns about the messages that my kids have received at school.

I've never heard of kids being forced to participate in protest marches, although they do make allowances to kids can attend in some cases (as with the environment march). I'm almost certain that there is no Catholic Board policy on sending kids to the right to life marches. If kids do attend, it is voluntary, and frankly within their right to do so.

[CityTech]

Information on LGBT rights is not automatically "sexual content". That very suggestion is offensive.

You can explain to little children that two women or two men can love each other without going into details about sex. Kids see straight couples holding hands and kissing all the time.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Information on LGBT rights is not automatically "sexual content". That very suggestion is offensive.

You can explain to little children that two women or two men can love each other without going into details about sex. Kids see straight couples holding hands and kissing all the time.

Not having read the book in question, I have no idea whether the content was appropriate or not. Based on the article, the question was the age at which it was appropriate, not whether the subject matter itself was acceptable.

In any event, I can just tell you that as far as I know, the curriculum does include discussion of same sex families among other things. My kids did units on those topics. The idea that Catholic schools are indoctrinating kids to be homophobic isn’t accurate. If it was, my kids wouldn’t be going there.

Since we’ve veered well off topic, I’ll leave it at that.

[Acajack]

Viewed from the outside it seems like Ontario and at least some of its Catholic schools play a cat and mouse game.

The schools push their luck, Ontario pushes back, rinse and repeat.

The type of stuff CityTech describes is familiar to me either through family or media reports.

Also stories about same sex dates being banned from proms, or kids using the gay rights movement for a human rights project being told they cannot...

In all cases the Catholic schools backed down but they stiĺl try to push the envelope.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm not sure that's always the case in the cities. I'm most familiar with the Glebe schools, but both Corpus Christi and Immaculata High School are far more diverse than their public counterparts, both from a socio-economic and racial perspective. That is a big part of the reason that my wife (who isn't Catholic) insisted on our kids going to the Catholic schools. That and the emphasis on values.

In Quebec (nominally) Catholic private schools are quite popular with more moderate Muslim families for this last reason.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by phil235

Not having read the book in question, I have no idea whether the content was appropriate or not. Based on the article, the question was the age at which it was appropriate, not whether the subject matter itself was acceptable.

In any event, I can just tell you that as far as I know, the curriculum does include discussion of same sex families among other things. My kids did units on those topics. The idea that Catholic schools are indoctrinating kids to be homophobic isn’t accurate. If it was, my kids wouldn’t be going there.

Since we’ve veered well off topic, I’ll leave it at that.

My wife is a catholic high school teacher and my kids go to a catholic elementary school. The amount of religion and "indoctrination" going on has dropped significantly over the last 25-30 years to the point that there is very little different between them and their public school counterparts. As the religious experiences continue to be diluted it appears more and more reasonable to rid ourselves of one of the last separate publicly-funded religious-based school systems in Canada. My kids go there since it is close and a very nice school and neighbourhood, not necessarily for the religious education. I do find the school has a very community-oriented, socially-conscious feel. Last I heard of students organizing pro-life rallies would have been at Imaculata in the 1990's, organized by none other than a young Andrew Scheer. He's a lot more wing nut that a lot of the conservative base realize......

[Acajack]

I have a lot of proximity to the Ontario Catholic school system via 2 very close relatives and numerous friends who teach there. Also my nieces and newphews who are in that system at the moment. My wife did all her schooling there and I did part of mine.

I am not saying it is extremely religious in the sense of bible thumpers in the southern US, but some of the stuff I hear out of there on occasion is surprising for 2019 in a Canadian public institution.

[Tesladom]

Looks like activity has resumed at future Costco site near Ogilvie/Blair.
Anybody have insight?

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Looks like activity has resumed at future Costco site near Ogilvie/Blair.
Anybody have insight?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comm...ers_city_east/

Costco Innes employee here: Tirinty who owns the land is making the parking lot and plan to be done September 15th.

After that there should be a new building up by November with a move in date of March or April 2020 this is according to my wearhouse manager. But could be eailer if all goes well I guess.

It's going to be a massive wearhouse including a 24 pump gas station.

Get ready Ogilvie Costco is coming!

Edit: didn't realize it wasn't Trinity anymore lol oh well.