Oregon Square | 2 buildings | XX'-XX" | 5-6 or 8-9 floors | Proposed

[soleri]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

Beautiful looking towers, but i can't help but feel the big courtyard is wasted space that will become dead and only used by residents. We want an integrated, vibrant hood, not a high rise gated community.

Hmm... I guess ill wait and see. Is there going to be retail flanking the courtyard or simply residential entrances?

I dont really take San Diego as a place to envy; they have odd height restrictions that don't do their city much justice.

Look at the map one more time. This block is wedged between the MAX line, Lloyd Blvd/I-84, and flanked by office buildings with very little retail. I doubt you can really activate its center since there's little if any pedestrian traffic. Most of us justifiably hate "towers in the park" sterility but in this case, it's probably the best you can do.

[PDXDENSITY]

Originally Posted by soleri

Look at the map one more time. This block is wedged between the MAX line, Lloyd Blvd/I-84, and flanked by office buildings with very little retail. I doubt you can really activate its center since there's little if any pedestrian traffic. Most of us justifiably hate "towers in the park" sterility but in this case, it's probably the best you can do.

The MAX line plus the nearby streetcar should activate this area for pedestrians. The enclave in the center seems ill-advised unless there are good plans to activate it in such a transit dense area.

Theyre even talking about a bike/ped bridge across 84 from 7th to 8th (shortest distance).

If this is a sterile, exclusive courtyard, it is a terrible misuse to create a vertical gated community. I will be following this closely.

Another thing about that area is how those office buildings completely lock off parts of their blocks so people have to go all the way around.

Itll be great to have the buildings, but im skeptical about the intent and marketing of the location. Theres a difference between a jameson square type park, and an unwelcoming courtyard between private buildings.

[maccoinnich]

ASSET MANAGEMENT



Preliminary rendering of the proposed redevelopment of the Oregon Square superblock in Portland’s Lloyd District, bird’s eye perspective from the NW (GBD Architects)

Last week American Assets Trust and GBD Architects surprised the city with an ambitious encore to their still under construction Hassalo on Eighth project in the Lloyd District. It seemed implausible that any project would eclipse Hassalo on Eighth any time soon, as it was already one of Portland’s biggest projects in years with 657 apartments, 50,000 sq. ft. of retail space, and 2,400 parking stalls split evenly between bikes and cars all on a four-acre superblock. Phase II is proposed to redevelop the existing lowrise office blocks known collectively as Oregon Square, the almost five-acre superblock immediately to the South of Hassalo on Eighth, with an impressive 1,000+ apartments, 36,000 sq. ft. of retail space, and between 800 and 1,300 parking stalls.

...continues at Places over Time.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

Beautiful looking towers, but i can't help but feel the big courtyard is wasted space that will become dead and only used by residents. We want an integrated, vibrant hood, not a high rise gated community.

Hmm... I guess ill wait and see. Is there going to be retail flanking the courtyard or simply residential entrances?

I dont really take San Diego as a place to envy; they have odd height restrictions that don't do their city much justice.

It will all depend on how the courtyard space is used, if it is done right it could be a very useful part of the development.

[PDXDENSITY]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

It will all depend on how the courtyard space is used, if it is done right it could be a very useful part of the development.

Exactly, if they have retail lining the courtyard? Im in! But im still watching to see what they do. I feel its on the line between turning its back on the district as opposed to integrating it.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

Exactly, if they have retail lining the courtyard? Im in! But im still watching to see what they do. I feel its on the line between turning its back on the district as opposed to integrating it.

Based on the pre-application, it does look like there might be a possibility for retail along the inside of the courtyard.

[PDXDENSITY]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

Based on the pre-application, it does look like there might be a possibility for retail along the inside of the courtyard.

Here's to hoping. I still dont like the courtyard design, but oh well.

[maccoinnich]

Red is retail.

[PDXDENSITY]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

Red is retail.

Ok, that looks like it's well-covered. Still, i get an unwelcoming feeling from the odd shape. It kinda makes me feel that it'll seem like an unwelcoming square. Obviously, the design may change. Maybe im nitpicking and it won't be a big deal.

[bvpcvm]

Well, keep in mind that the size and shape of the plaza is pretty similar to what's already there, so it shouldn't really be any worse. Please do walk through the plaza currently from the MAX stop to the state office building. And given that instead of 1-story buildings in each corner, you'll have multi-story buildings in each corner there will be more people around. So all in all I don't think the plaza will be much of a problem. Isn't there a farmers' market there currently? No reason it couldn't continue.

[PDXDENSITY]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

Well, keep in mind that the size and shape of the plaza is pretty similar to what's already there, so it shouldn't really be any worse. Please do walk through the plaza currently from the MAX stop to the state office building. And given that instead of 1-story buildings in each corner, you'll have multi-story buildings in each corner there will be more people around. So all in all I don't think the plaza will be much of a problem. Isn't there a farmers' market there currently? No reason it couldn't continue.

I didnt know there was a market there already. I guess ive had a similar brusk through attitude about the area.

[ltsmotorsport]

For this courtyard/plaza/square to work, they'll need to actively use it. Not only will the retail contribute, but some kind of periodic art fair or farmers market would bring much needed energy to such a large urban space, especially one that will look to be walled-off to the casual observer from the outside.


Edit: Guess it's already been said. This kind of activity is really the only way this space works.

[maccoinnich]

I have found this discussion about the public space pretty interesting. My initial reaction on seeing the images last week was that the square was too big; now that I've had more time to think about it, the more I'm convinced of it.

The Bureau of Planning & Sustainability would like a public square for the Lloyd District, but I'm not convinced this is the right place for it. This square appears to be larger than Pioneer Courthouse Square. That square works for a number of reasons, beyond just the fact that it's well designed. It has lots of people visiting it: it's at the center of the downtown shopping core, with Macy's and Nordstrom right beside it; it's the location where the original MAX alignment crosses the transit mall; and it has a larger number of offices right by it. It's never short of people, and therefore feels appropriately scaled.

This square isn't going to have those advantages. It's right on the periphery of the Lloyd District, and no matter how successful a development it is, it will never drive those numbers of people into the area. Right now phase II has less retail in it than Hassalo on 8th does; probably a reflection of the fact that retail will be harder to let in this location. If they don't think retail will thrive here, why do they a giant square will work? There is an existing farmers market, yes, but it's only once a week, in the morning. There's only so much programming that can be done, and my worry is that this space will feel overly large and empty when it's not being programmed.

When I look at the Design Review documents for Hassalo on 8th, I can't help but feel they've diverged from the great strategy they presented to the Design Commission last year. The superblocks would be broken down into more traditionally Portland-sized blocks, with a strong north-south pedestrian spine. They proposed using storm water treatment as a unifying landscaping element, in quite an attractive fashion. I've extracted some of those images here:







I had really hoped this development would continue this concept, especially given that it's the same developer and architect. I would perfectly happy if the 10 story buildings came down in height to 6 stories, but took up more space on the ground. I'll be really interested to hear what the Design Commission has to say.

[PDXDENSITY]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

I have found this discussion about the public space pretty interesting. My initial reaction on seeing the images last week was that the square was too big; now that I've had more time to think about it, the more I'm convinced of it.

The Bureau of Planning & Sustainability would like a public square for the Lloyd District, but I'm not convinced this is the right place for it. This square appears to be larger than Pioneer Courthouse Square. That square works for a number of reasons, beyond just the fact that it's well designed. It has lots of people visiting it: it's at the center of the downtown shopping core, with Macy's and Nordstrom right beside it; it's the location where the original MAX alignment crosses the transit mall; and it has a larger number of offices right by it. It's never short of people, and therefore feels appropriately scaled.

This square isn't going to have those advantages. It's right on the periphery of the Lloyd District, and no matter how successful a development it is, it will never drive those numbers of people into the area. Right now phase II has less retail in it than Hassalo on 8th does; probably a reflection of the fact that retail will be harder to let in this location. If they don't think retail will thrive here, why do they a giant square will work? There is an existing farmers market, yes, but it's only once a week, in the morning. There's only so much programming that can be done, and my worry is that this space will feel overly large and empty when it's not being programmed.

When I look at the Design Review documents for Hassalo on 8th, I can't help but feel they've diverged from the great strategy they presented to the Design Commission last year. The superblocks would be broken down into more traditionally Portland-sized blocks, with a strong north-south pedestrian spine. They proposed using storm water treatment as a unifying landscaping element, in quite an attractive fashion. I've extracted some of those images here:







I had really hoped this development would continue this concept, especially given that it's the same developer and architect. I would perfectly happy if the 10 story buildings came down in height to 6 stories, but took up more space on the ground. I'll be really interested to hear what the Design Commission has to say.

It was more a vague sense from an amateur enthusiast; thank you so much for fleshing out mostly what I was feeling! I'd totally take some height reduction for less open ground space. Though, not much! I feel it could be as massive with a more narrow walkthrough. The courtyard feels like it's setting too much of a south waterfront sterile office park/yuppie paddock vibe... It should be more congested in such an urban setting! Not wind-swept or gated or desolate... Grrrrrr

[NJD]

I'm not convinced its such a bad preliminary design, the Lloyd is *currently* very open, and a traditional american square surrounded by streets would have a harder time being successful than a controlled edge, euro style square. Oregon Square will bring the street grid back, just pedestrian oriented with a 200' x 200' perfect offset plaza in its crosshairs. I argue it's perfect for the southern terminus of the planned pedestrian spine (something that the existing gov't offices will not succeed at), and that the 'center' of the Lloyd is being redefined right now!... and good on 'em. Besides, any sized plaza can be designed well, and there's a lot of money going into this so I have faith that it will be done right.

[hat]

Both Mac and NJD have some valid points. If indeed the farmers market is to remain in the area, it needs adequate space. There are currently less than a dozen venders there from 10-2 Tuesdays, leaving the space all but devoid of life otherwise.

Perhaps it is possible this may set the stage for further events in Lloyd. I'm not convinced this space is either too big or too small yet. It depends very much on what specific businesses come to this block as well as what type of park-like setting is planned. If it continues to remain simply a flat area ostensibly for a farmers market once a week, I'm very skeptical of this design. The space needs to invite people living there, with a playground for example. But also it needs a public square where others are welcome and go to just sit. This reminds me of some well intentioned, but dead spaces in Germany/France, and some very amazing and packed public squares. Certainly the potential is there.

[urbanlife]

They should allow the square to have food carts in it. A Lloydlandia is all that would be needed to make it an active space....and on a side note, I think I need to start a food cart in the Lloyd District called Lloydlandia.

[PDXDENSITY]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

They should allow the square to have food carts in it. A Lloydlandia is all that would be needed to make it an active space....and on a side note, I think I need to start a food cart in the Lloyd District called Lloydlandia.

This would totally engage the space. Only way I think that square wouldn't make the Lloyd even more sterile/disconnected.

[davehogan]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

Beautiful looking towers, but i can't help but feel the big courtyard is wasted space that will become dead and only used by residents. We want an integrated, vibrant hood, not a high rise gated community.

Hmm... I guess ill wait and see. Is there going to be retail flanking the courtyard or simply residential entrances?

I dont really take San Diego as a place to envy; they have odd height restrictions that don't do their city much justice.

Downtown San Diego has a lot of rules about view corridors, which leads to more slender buildings with more unique looks to them.

The height restrictions come from their airport having a short runway and requiring a flyby of downtown to land there. When I lived in SAN I used to mess with tourists when I could see out my airplane window that someone in a downtown tower was watching Judge Judy.

The airport is a major problem they've been trying to sort out for decades, but there's not enough flat land anywhere near the city to build a new airport.

Lots of flights take off less than full to make sure they don't hit the hill on the NW end of the runway. It's not a great spot for a modern urban airport, which creates strange pressures on downtown.

[maccoinnich]

Metro report time. GBD have requested Design Advice on this project. We should see more drawings soon.

Proposed Oregon Square development – 4 block superblock development on site of the existing Oregon Square block, including 4 apartment towers and a public pedestrian only plaza. Proposing 1030 apartment units, 36000 sf retail, 800 below-grade parking stalls.