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  #5401  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 5:47 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Why not just postpone that indefinitely, build to Orleans immediately (not difficult at all and less expensive) and see how much they complain about lack of service with the east end built out?
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  #5402  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 6:00 PM
Luker Luker is online now
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Seriously, its getting to that point...

We are pandering way to much towards the desires of the Westboroites; they talk about preserving views and green space, yet they are the first to build lot to lot line McMansions leaving no front, side or back yards for them to enjoy. Not to mention a massive overbuild and shadow for neighbours.

Orleans is looking real tempting right now in terms of extensions. Do we have any idea if blair to Place D'Orleans can be done for under a billion?
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  #5403  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 6:12 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Originally Posted by Luker View Post
Seriously, its getting to that point...

We are pandering way to much towards the desires of the Westboroites; they talk about preserving views and green space, yet they are the first to build lot to lot line McMansions leaving no front, side or back yards for them to enjoy. Not to mention a massive overbuild and shadow for neighbours.

Orleans is looking real tempting right now in terms of extensions. Do we have any idea if blair to Place D'Orleans can be done for under a billion?
I think it would be around $500 million. Almost that entire section is at-grade, on City of Ottawa property (the 174 ROW - either side or the median, just requires a crossover at some point). The biggest expense would be at Place d'Orleans itself, where several options exist. Extending further to Trim would likely add about $150 million, including greatly expanding the Park and Ride.
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  #5404  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 6:51 PM
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  #5405  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 7:26 PM
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Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
Oh poor Westboroites and Mckellarbabies... Less noise, traffic, smog & pollution. Taking 500,000 bus trips off the roads? or the road (Parkway)? Not sure which was said, but either way, a great achievement and hard to believe they're making this so tedious and expensive.

It must be the high likely hood of increased property values that's bothering them
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  #5406  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 7:26 PM
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This was all predictable as the price continues to escalate. I said a couple of years ago that the western extension will have to be underground and one step at a time, this is what is happening.
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  #5407  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 8:01 PM
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Well I think your condos are ugly, so let's call it even and move ahead with it.
I'm not even sure which condos she's referring to. The only condos whose views of anything of significance could conceivably be blocked by the location of Cleary Station are those in the new Continental tower (which was likely opposed by the same people). Well them and whatever goes in at the strip mall at Cleary, which has mysteriously fallen off the radar.

Any of the condo developments further east are exactly that - further east - so the station won't be in line of sight.


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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Why not just postpone that indefinitely, build to Orleans immediately (not difficult at all and less expensive) and see how much they complain about lack of service with the east end built out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luker View Post
Seriously, its getting to that point...

We are pandering way to much towards the desires of the Westboroites; they talk about preserving views and green space, yet they are the first to build lot to lot line McMansions leaving no front, side or back yards for them to enjoy. Not to mention a massive overbuild and shadow for neighbours.

Orleans is looking real tempting right now in terms of extensions. Do we have any idea if blair to Place D'Orleans can be done for under a billion?

In fairness, that's people who move into Westboro doing that, much to the annoyance of anyone (i.e. the neighbours) already living here.

As to the Orleans issue, the point of extending west is to cut out the next most costly-to-operate segment of the BRT system.

And I don't even know to what extent the complaining is coming from people who live in Westboro versus those who live in McKellar Park who in recent years have taken to claiming they live in Westboro. I remember back in the 90s when Westboro Village was a bit of a dive that people from McKellar Park were always quick to correct the notion that they lived in Westboro. Anyone who actually lives in Westboro would benefit from light rail as it removes the buses from the trench (which doesn't do much to contain the noise) and provides a more comfortable transit ride into Ottawa (since I'm going to be standing anyway, far better to be standing on a train than a bus).


It's too bad the NCC ever allowed buses on the Parkway: they should have insisted that the City build on the former CPR corridor. Then the NIMBYs would be demanding the City replace buses with light rail.
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  #5408  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 8:40 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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McKellar Park is also politically one of the most conservative parts of Ottawa inside the Greenbelt? That may also play a role.
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  #5409  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 9:05 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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NCC still not happy either. This is going to be so expensive in the end, unnecessarily...
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  #5410  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 9:22 PM
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Man those Alstom Citadis trams we're getting are cool! Check out this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y52sJX_g3Pk
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  #5411  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
NCC still not happy either. This is going to be so expensive in the end, unnecessarily...
Not to worry. I'm sure there will be money from another level of Gov't to help cover the costs. Oh, wait...we pay our taxes to that level Gov't too. Maybe we can ask Greece for some cash!!
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  #5412  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 10:11 PM
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Perhaps the city should just bow to the pressure of these associations, bury the line in a deep bored tunnel, and eliminate the stations in the neighbourhood as requested. It might also want to facilitate these homeowners' need to pretend they live in the country by disconnecting them from other services such as hydro, water, and sewage.
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  #5413  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2013, 11:28 PM
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It's like these people think that is the final design for the stations!

New plan; expropriate the NIMBYs, build the cheaper trench on their former properties and then sell the air rights and land at a premium to developers who want to be near subway stations.
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  #5414  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2013, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
It's like these people think that is the final design for the stations!

New plan; expropriate the NIMBYs, build the cheaper trench on their former properties and then sell the air rights and land at a premium to developers who want to be near subway stations.
I like it.

This could be the north side of Richmond Rd at Mansfield or Westminster: http://goo.gl/bvAg2

(take a look at the satellite shot)

Or, since this is Ottawa and everything has to be grade-separated: http://goo.gl/Yk432
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  #5415  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2013, 1:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I like it.

This could be the north side of Richmond Rd at Mansfield or Westminster: http://goo.gl/bvAg2

(take a look at the satellite shot)

Or, since this is Ottawa and everything has to be grade-separated: http://goo.gl/Yk432
The satellite shots are before the LRT? If so, damn!

Where are the NIMBYs in Calgary?

Two extremes!!!
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  #5416  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2013, 1:19 AM
c_speed3108 c_speed3108 is offline
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I think there may be a bit of strategy at play here. I would have to think someone from the city would have contacted someone at the NCC and said look we are thinking of this, would you guys go for it.

I have the feeling the city is trying to get this in the Bryon Tramway in a trench. The trick they are trying to play is to corner things into that option.

Basically they just keep throwing out options and letting either NIMBy's bitch or the NCC bitch. Eventually they will work this down to the only affordable option being the trench along Byron and linear dog walking park be dammed.
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  #5417  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2013, 1:46 AM
NOWINYOW NOWINYOW is offline
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Originally Posted by c_speed3108 View Post
I think there may be a bit of strategy at play here. I would have to think someone from the city would have contacted someone at the NCC and said look we are thinking of this, would you guys go for it.

I have the feeling the city is trying to get this in the Bryon Tramway in a trench. The trick they are trying to play is to corner things into that option.

Basically they just keep throwing out options and letting either NIMBy's bitch or the NCC bitch. Eventually they will work this down to the only affordable option being the trench along Byron and linear dog walking park be dammed.
As far as planning goes, I think you're spot on! It would be the least disruptive. Cut and cover portions if need be.
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  #5418  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2013, 2:31 AM
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Originally Posted by c_speed3108 View Post
I think there may be a bit of strategy at play here. I would have to think someone from the city would have contacted someone at the NCC and said look we are thinking of this, would you guys go for it.
I get the sense that what NCC officials within the bureaucracy may be inclined to agree to is not the same as what the NCC board is agreeable to.

We get this kind of circular problem where the NCC board won't pronounce on something until it has been presented to the public by City officials but without the blessing of the NCC board it's kind of pointless to present it at all.

Quote:
I have the feeling the city is trying to get this in the Bryon Tramway in a trench. The trick they are trying to play is to corner things into that option.

Basically they just keep throwing out options and letting either NIMBy's bitch or the NCC bitch. Eventually they will work this down to the only affordable option being the trench along Byron and linear dog walking park be dammed.
I think the City really does want the CPR corridor - it's too simple from a design perspective to pass up: it's straight, direct and it has no utilities in the way in need of relocation and were it not for the NIMBY brigades and the NCC, it wouldn't need costly trenching or tunnelling either.

I do think they made a tactical mistake though in coming up with the "Richmond Underground" option of tunnelling west of Cleary: that just opened the door to tunnelling virtually everywhere. The fact that the City would tunnel - under a road no less - to avoid its own greenspace probably didn't help in arguing for not doing so in the NCC's greenspace. They should have stuck to proposing a shallow cutting or a trench in the Richmond linear park.
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  #5419  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2013, 4:20 AM
S-Man S-Man is offline
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McKellar Park is also politically one of the most conservative parts of Ottawa inside the Greenbelt? That may also play a role.
Yeah, because no self-proclaimed progressive would EVER put their own narrow self-interests above the greater good...

I'm not sure where that assertion came from, but the Westboro-McKellars are sure starting to sound like the old guard denizens of London, Ontario. Affluent, educated, entitled, progressive (but only at the voting booth), but intolerant to any neighbourhood change, even if it means an investment in the community's future (resulting in decades of status quo and increasingly poor service in terms of road infrastructure and transit).

There's a great London Free Press article from a few months ago where a whole community rallied and pressured city hall to prevent the construction of a duplex. But I digress...
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  #5420  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2013, 5:11 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Luker View Post
Seriously, its getting to that point...

We are pandering way to much towards the desires of the Westboroites; they talk about preserving views and green space, yet they are the first to build lot to lot line McMansions leaving no front, side or back yards for them to enjoy. Not to mention a massive overbuild and shadow for neighbours.
If they want to build to the lot line, let them build to the lot line.

What's an "overbuild"?
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