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Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 9:22 PM
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Calgary Purchaser Cancellations

First post on here so pls mind any rules I may or may not be breaking....

With the Calgary market continuing to soften and construction moving forward, does anyone know or have any statistical information on purchaser cancellation rates in Calgary or even Alberta as a whole?

Late 2006 + all of 2007 saw so many purchasers putting down minimal deposits of 5-10% on units (mostly pre-construction highrise) at inflated market prices--they were most typically investors or first-time homebuyers. Here we are now, 1.5+ years later, closing dates are coming and going and a good number purchasers are opting to walk on their deposits rather than taking on (or getting approved for) a mortgage amount that is far greater than the unit's fair market value.

Does anyone know of or have any stats to back up this observation. It seems I hear about it all the time however it's not something that is tracked or monitored by CMHC or CHBA. Thoughts?

With the way the current market is sitting, what is a realistic cancellation rate to expect if I have upcoming possession dates for purchasers that signed that offer to purchase when the market was red hot 1+ years ago??

signed,

nervous
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 9:29 PM
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while i have nothing factual to back this up i would guess we see a relatively small percentage, say 5-10% back out...
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 9:30 PM
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You aren't a speculator are you ?
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by seven thirty View Post
Here we are now, 1.5+ years later, closing dates are coming and going and a good number purchasers are opting to walk on their deposits rather than taking on (or getting approved for) a mortgage amount that is far greater than the unit's fair market value.
Do you know of anyone personally that has walked?

Projects that are taking posession or close would be Vetro/Union Square/Colours/Nova/Castello/Xenex. If one could gather any info on them in this regard it would help answer the question.
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 9:54 PM
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If the deposits were put down 1.5-2 years ago, the market of today could be similar to what it was back then (??). We had a huge run up in prices but it has only started to tail off in the past year or so. I wonder if people truly are sitting on a unit that is worth less than they are going to have to pay, or if will only be worth roughly what they did agree topay for it (ie not immediate profit on a sale). Pure speculation on my part.

Some people likely will walk away though, and I doubt the developers will be going out of their way to advertise how many people have done so in their particular projects. I think the best we can hope to hear is anecdotal evidence rather then actual numbers.
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 10:02 PM
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Some people likely will walk away though, and I doubt the developers will be going out of their way to advertise how many people have done so in their particular projects. I think the best we can hope to hear is anecdotal evidence rather then actual numbers.
Likewise, we may not hear from developers who choose to go after the purchasers to honour their contracts. There will be legal approaches to follow for breaking the contract - lots of developers will likely choose to enforce the contracts but won't advertise it as it makes them look like the bad guys.
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 11:24 PM
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In the project I am working on we have 160 units in the first building. Of those, thus far, we are looking at about 20 who are considering walking away. Of course the average purchaser does not recognize the legal reprecussions and obligations that they have when they sign a contract for the purchase of a unit.
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 11:26 PM
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In addition to the above the rental market is HOT! We have owners who wanted to flip but are quite content with renting their suites as they are getting tons of responses.

I have a guy who listed his suite on rentfaster.com and had 20 phone calls within 10 minutes of his listing going live.
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Old Posted Sep 24, 2008, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Innersoul1 View Post
In the project I am working on we have 160 units in the first building. Of those, thus far, we are looking at about 20 who are considering walking away. Of course the average purchaser does not recognize the legal reprecussions and obligations that they have when they sign a contract for the purchase of a unit.
bingo
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Old Posted Sep 24, 2008, 5:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innersoul1 View Post
In the project I am working on we have 160 units in the first building. Of those, thus far, we are looking at about 20 who are considering walking away. Of course the average purchaser does not recognize the legal reprecussions and obligations that they have when they sign a contract for the purchase of a unit.
Coldrsx> dead on or so it seems at 12.5%. incredible.

Innersoul>if you don't mind me asking, how have you determined that 20 of your 160 purchasers will walk? Is that simply a hunch or have these purchasers communicated that to you? That's a scary reality however I would think it's would be a rare occasion when the builder/developer would come chase the walking purchaser for further damages above and beyond their initial deposit. agree?

Clearly, I need to do some digging as lubicon stated>there will never come a time when builders/developers will advertise this information. I do however wonder if that 5-15% cancellation is accurate as of today? It's a problem that most developers fear getting into it and seems to only be getting bigger with time (at least for the next 18-24 months) They didn't sign up to be in the resale game so one would only believe their objective would be to avoid taking back units and associated carrying costs. There doesn't seem to be anything developers/builders can do but sit tight and hope for the best if they have upcoming possessions. Even with rental possibilities, still too much uncertainty out there...

Last edited by seven thirty; Sep 24, 2008 at 5:55 PM. Reason: spelling error
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Old Posted Sep 24, 2008, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigtime View Post
Do you know of anyone personally that has walked?

Projects that are taking posession or close would be Vetro/Union Square/Colours/Nova/Castello/Xenex. If one could gather any info on them in this regard it would help answer the question.
Unfortunately, I do. one particular scenario as follows:
2007 Purchase Price: $900,000
Appraised Market Value: $760,000 (some would argue even less)
Initial Deposit: $90,000 (10%)
End Result: They walked and lost their 10% and the builder is now stuck with a unit they cannot sell as they've got 15 units just like it that won't move. It's a lose-lose.
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Old Posted Sep 24, 2008, 7:45 PM
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I may be taking crazy pills but why would someone spending that much on a unit look at their potential to flip it for more money? Doesn't it stand to reason that if you are the kind of person that can afford that you don't have a need to make money on your purchase?

If you are buying to live and have no problem with the $900,000 price tag then there is no reason to walk on it.
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Old Posted Sep 24, 2008, 7:57 PM
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You also have to factor in how many people would walk away in normal market conditions. In the time it takes to build a condo, many people's lives may have changed significantly from when they made the initial deposit. I would guess it may be somewhere between 0-5% that would walk away. I honestly don't see this being a major issue.

I'm noticing a lot less realtor key-boxes on my condo in Bridgeland, and it looks like the number of listings are not rising significantly anymore, nor are the prices falling fast (at least on the mls listings). I think were starting to get into a hold pattern right now. If we see oil & gas prices rise again, it won't be too long before things start to improve, though it will be a much slower, more normal growth rate.
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Old Posted Sep 24, 2008, 9:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seven thirty View Post
Coldrsx> dead on or so it seems at 12.5%. incredible.

Innersoul>if you don't mind me asking, how have you determined that 20 of your 160 purchasers will walk? Is that simply a hunch or have these purchasers communicated that to you? That's a scary reality however I would think it's would be a rare occasion when the builder/developer would come chase the walking purchaser for further damages above and beyond their initial deposit. agree?

Clearly, I need to do some digging as lubicon stated>there will never come a time when builders/developers will advertise this information. I do however wonder if that 5-15% cancellation is accurate as of today? It's a problem that most developers fear getting into it and seems to only be getting bigger with time (at least for the next 18-24 months) They didn't sign up to be in the resale game so one would only believe their objective would be to avoid taking back units and associated carrying costs. There doesn't seem to be anything developers/builders can do but sit tight and hope for the best if they have upcoming possessions. Even with rental possibilities, still too much uncertainty out there...
Yeah we are in communication with purchasers prior to their possessions. Thus, we have a fairly good tab on how closings are progressing or will progress. It is a scary reality and as it has been mentioned situations change during the course of construction. The project I am involved in has only taken two years. Essentially, those 20 can be divided into two categories:

1) We just don't have any interest in closing any more (these are largely speculators or "weekend" investors).

2) Those who can't get financing (I will explain below - these purchasers are fairly easy to resolve as we have our own brokers who can likely approve them. However, many in this case end up falling into the category above.

What we are finding along with a number of other sites around the city is the appraisers are not appraising the suites at what they purchased at and in many cases significantly lower. Thus CMHC won't insure the loan and that becomes a big issue. The main problem, that blows my mind, is that appraisers don't take into account the same factors that we do when pricing a suite. For example our courtyard facing suites are higher in price than exterior ones. A fourth floor suite is higher in price than second floor suite. The appraisers only look at the layout an upgrades, sometimes they even slip on the latter. This is a HUGE problem.

As for builders chasing the purchasers for further damages it isn't as far off as you think. Generally, in the industry what happens is a suite that isn't closed on is passed to a realtor who has the ability to sell at a lowered price. The difference between the price paid for by the initial purchaser (the walker) and what the realtor sells for can be charged to the initial purchaser. In most cases the threat is what gets people to close.
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Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 4:48 AM
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long time reader, first time poster...thanks for the great resource guys.

I know a LOT of speculators in castello, union square and xenex and most are having one of two problems:

1) can't close as they cannot get a mortgage for whatever reason (can't qualify, appraised value is below contract price)

2) won't close because they were counting on being able to flip the property before construction was completed....market is putting the brakes on the flip strategy. these guys will walk away from 50k deposits and leave the developer holding the bag, 100%. in most cases these buyers are young speculators with little in terms of assets to go after.

Looking at castello specifically, a few 2nd and 3rd floor listings are on MLS. Centron's listings are priced at well above $500/sf (1500sqf penthouse@$810/sqf, 9th floor 1270sf@$557/sqf, 9th floor 988sqf@$540/sqf )


..while the owner listings are as low as $450/sf. Who knows what price they will actually sell at!

I am waiting until all of these projects are complete and developers are desperate to unload units at build cost, just to get them off their books. That time is fast approaching....2009 will be a year for bargain hunters!
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Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigtime View Post
I may be taking crazy pills but why would someone spending that much on a unit look at their potential to flip it for more money? Doesn't it stand to reason that if you are the kind of person that can afford that you don't have a need to make money on your purchase?
Besides the fact that someone who can take a loss on a $90,000 deposit... that's just insane. The value in the example hadn't dropped THAT much, this was clearly someone who simply couldn't afford what they bought in the first place, and likely was massively in debt for the down payment alone.

I'm having less and less sympathy for these morons all the time. It's one thing to find out that the condo you live in is now worth $200,000 less than your mortgage, and you're now very anxious to see the market go back up (because who knows what happens in life, and if you DO have to sell, you're ruined). It's a whole other ball of wax to sign up for a purchase that you clearly cannot afford.

These assholes destroyed the US economy, and arguably caused a large slowdown in Calgary's immigration rate (some will say this was a good thing) as they all tried to out-bid one another on properties they couldn't afford in the first place. And now we get to have a mini-market slowdown as the market absorbs the consequences of their poorly planned greed.

I hope more than a few of them lose their shirts.
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Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 1:54 PM
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Freeweed: You and I are totally on the same page. Did all these speculators think they were mini Donald Trumps or something? They have ruined the biggest push towards inner city densification that this city has seen in a long time, now we will be waiting at least a couple of years for everything to correct and the next wave to get up and running.

Harpua: Welcome to the forum! I have a quick question, in your point #2 you mention speculators that were hoping to flip before posession. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the majority of purchase contracts prevented the ability to sell the property until after posession and title is taken by the buyer. Or are there ways around this?

As for point #1, didn't they do the calculations before to make sure they weren't overextending themselves? This really seems like basic financial planning 101 to myself and quite a few others.
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Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 2:28 PM
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As for point #1, didn't they do the calculations before to make sure they weren't overextending themselves? This really seems like basic financial planning 101 to myself and quite a few others.
No, most did not (from those that I know). When unit values were going up $20,000+ in a MONTH, most people just extrapolated forever, into infinite dollar signs.

Simpsons fans will appreciate this: "Did you know disco record sales were up 400% for the year ending 1976? If this trend continues... AYYYYY!"

Thankfully, most of them are going to learn a very painful lesson.
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Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 2:37 PM
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Simpsons fans will appreciate this: "Did you know disco record sales were up 400% for the year ending 1976? If this trend continues... AYYYYY!"
This is the best comparison to be brought up yet!
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Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 2:39 PM
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"Did you know disco record sales were up 400% for the year ending 1976? If this trend continues... AYYYYY!"
"Your fish are dead."

"I know. I... can't get them out of there."
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