Ottawa intercity bus terminal relocation

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I am not clear what problem these proposals are trying to solve. The bus and train generally serve the same routes, so there is not much intermodal transferring going on.

There isn't much intermodal transferring going on because it is inconvenient to do so. I bet plenty of people heading to and from Sudbury (or any point in Northern Ontario for that matter) and Montreal would love to split their trip between bus and train if they had the opportunity.

The Ottawa train station was once such a hub when the trains used to run northwest from here. Before the massive cuts in the 1980s the place was quite lively with people transferring between the transcontinental and corridor trains. Moving the bus station would make the station regain some of that activity back, plus for many bus travellers, a multi-hour layover at the Trainyards with its Walmart, cheap box stores and chain restaurants would probably be more appealing than grungy Catherine Street despite its proximity to Bank. The LRT puts the rest of the city within easy reach anyway. I could see a budget hotel doing well at the Trainyards, too.

[lrt's friend]

Why would bus companies want to locate with their direct competition? As was said, maybe somebody coming from Sudbury might change to a train bound for Montreal, which is a loss for the bus company on their Ottawa-Montreal route.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Why would bus companies want to locate with their direct competition? As was said, maybe somebody coming from Sudbury might change to a train bound for Montreal, which is a loss for the bus company on their Ottawa-Montreal route.

Because if the train somehow isn't running (eg. derailment), massively late, or someone missed it, they could also easily take the bus. Works both ways. Competing trains used to operate out of separate stations with that kind of protective mentality until the concept of a "union station" came to be.

Exurban buses could also operate from the Trainyards, almost like GO services.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

There isn't much intermodal transferring going on because it is inconvenient to do so. I bet plenty of people heading to and from Sudbury (or any point in Northern Ontario for that matter) and Montreal would love to split their trip between bus and train if they had the opportunity.

The Ottawa train station was once such a hub when the trains used to run northwest from here. Before the massive cuts in the 1980s the place was quite lively with people transferring between the transcontinental and corridor trains. Moving the bus station would make the station regain some of that activity back, plus for many bus travellers, a multi-hour layover at the Trainyards with its Walmart, cheap box stores and chain restaurants would probably be more appealing than grungy Catherine Street despite its proximity to Bank. The LRT puts the rest of the city within easy reach anyway. I could see a budget hotel doing well at the Trainyards, too.

Sounds like a big expense to save a very small number of people a 5 minute uber ride.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Sounds like a big expense to save a very small number of people a 5 minute uber ride.

Creating a multimodal hub isn't just about making travel more convenient for a small handful of people; it's about city building. It's about having the gateway to our nation's capital be somewhat pleasant and memorable. What kind of message do we wish to send tourists? What message do we send now, with our bus station in a sketchy part of town? "Come to Ottawa, where you might just be murdered after getting off the bus!"

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Sounds like a big expense to save a very small number of people a 5 minute uber ride.

Great idea! maybe we should require people to use Uber to transfer between the Confederation line and OC buses.

It's not a trivial amount of people. The train station could be a hub for serving all the small communities in eastern Ontario and western Quebec better. Making these transfers more convenient are a way of increasing ridership and possibly building a market for new routes. Many people from small communities just drive because they don't have any other choice, or avoid travelling altogether if they don't have a way.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Great idea! maybe we should require people to use Uber to transfer between the Confederation line and OC buses.

It's not a trivial amount of people. The train station could be a hub for serving all the small communities in eastern Ontario and western Quebec better. Making these transfers more convenient are a way of increasing ridership and possibly building a market for new routes. Many people from small communities just drive because they don't have any other choice, or avoid travelling altogether if they don't have a way.

Those bus services don’t exist and a relocated bus station is not going to lead to their creation.

[Aylmer]

Off the top of my head, here are our bus lines.

- Maniwaki-Grand Remous
- Montebello-Mont Tremblant-Rivière Rouge
- Ottawa River North Shore
- Hawkesbury-Montreal
- Montreal Express
- Cornwall
- Brockville-Kingston
- Syracuse, NY
- Shabot Lake-Kingston
- Highway 7
- Toronto
- Algonquin Park
- Highway 17-Sudbury-White River
- Shawville-Waltham

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Those bus services don’t exist and a relocated bus station is not going to lead to their creation.

People like you are why nice things don't happen.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

People like you are why nice things don't happen.

Don’t shoot the messenger. Bus companies are guided by economic forces, governments are guided by political forces. Neither are going to create a trans-regional rural feeder service for Via rail.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Off the top of my head, here are our bus lines.

- Maniwaki-Grand Remous
- Montebello-Mont Tremblant-Rivière Rouge
- Ottawa River North Shore
- Hawkesbury-Montreal
- Montreal Express
- Cornwall
- Brockville-Kingston
- Syracuse, NY
- Shabot Lake-Kingston
- Highway 7
- Toronto
- Algonquin Park
- Highway 17-Sudbury-White River
- Shawville-Waltham

How many of those routes are practical for a train transfer in Ottawa?

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Don’t shoot the messenger. Bus companies are guided by economic forces, governments are guided by political forces. Neither are going to create a trans-regional rural feeder service for Via rail.

Have you ever tried to take public transportation to towns like Almonte, Shawville or Maniwaki? If you were a young person without a car it is difficult. This is one of the reasons why many of these communities which used to be railway towns are stagnating, declining or disappearing because they can't keep their people.

There's an awful lot of opportunities out there if we just put some imagination to the solutions. For example, with the rise of e-commerce, there could easily be an integration of public transportation and deliveries to depots or lockers in outlying communities.

You seem to be throwing every reason against a solution to the current bus station, which is situated in a one way street blocks away from convenient public transit other than westbound.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by acottawa

How many of those routes are practical for a train transfer in Ottawa?

Basically any of the ones within 100km (and further for points north and north-west) heading to Toronto, Montreal, or elsewhere in the corridor. Say, Maniwaki-Toronto, Sudbury-Montreal, Petawawa-YUL, Montreal-Algonquin Park, etc. Any of those people who want to take a flight would probably use it too to get to YUL or YYZ.

[Truenorth00]

An intermodal terminal is not just about folks from Sudbury. It's also about easier access for the rest of us in Ottawa and the NCR.

The reluctance of bus companies to co-operate is logical though. And I don't think they'll come to the table until something big like HFR happens with VIA. If/when something like that happens, the choice will be to close up shop or to transition to a regional service model.

If VIA had the funds and was a little more ruthless, they could run their own buses the way Amtrak does in the US. They'd probably kill Greyhound though.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Have you ever tried to take public transportation to towns like Almonte, Shawville or Maniwaki? If you were a young person without a car it is difficult. This is one of the reasons why many of these communities which used to be railway towns are stagnating, declining or disappearing because they can't keep their people.

There's an awful lot of opportunities out there if we just put some imagination to the solutions. For example, with the rise of e-commerce, there could easily be an integration of public transportation and deliveries to depots or lockers in outlying communities.

You seem to be throwing every reason against a solution to the current bus station, which is situated in a one way street blocks away from convenient public transit other than westbound.

The current bus terminal is reasonably effective. There is enough space to store buses and do basic maintenance, it is reasonably accessible for the buses from all directions and is somewhat walkable to the city centre and close the two universities. I totally agree that transit services are lousy, but that mostly because of OC Transpo’s choices.

Intercity buses are in severe decline. Greyhound has already pulled out of Western Canada. Young people prefer ride sharing and anyone who can afford to takes other options does so. The vast majority of remaining buses go to to either Toronto or Montreal, which duplicates train services. I take your point that transportation can be difficult in small towns, but I have a hard time seeing more intercity buses as a solution to this problem or a path to revitalization of small towns.

[Aylmer]

I think that one of the reasons why intercity buses aren't appealing is because they are so unwieldly. The lack of coordinated scheduling, integrated ticketing, modal integration, etc. means that it's often a mode of last resort. The train is attractive, especially as young people such as myself increasingly forego car ownership and consequently have more to spend on intercity travel. But its lack of destinations makes it inconvenient.

I would very much favour a Verkehrsverbund-style arrangement which would bring together bus operators and VIA under a unified scheduling, ticketing, and marketing organization. Pool routes to avoid undercutting and duplication (ex: shift bus passengers to VIA between Ottawa and Montreal, allowing for more frequencies for the combined bus+rail demand). Have integrated ticketing which allow for passengers to book a single ticket over several operators. Have integrated stations, where you can easily connect from a Montreal-Ottawa train to an Ottawa-Pembroke bus. Have integrated schedules which allow people to catch connections between operators and modes.

This kind of ease would go a long way to making both rail and bus transport more attractive.

On a less pie-in-the-sky note, a way to make bus travel less ick would definitely be to do away with the current terminal. I feel dirty when I have to pass through there, and I feel ashamed to have people arriving to Ottawa in that building and in that location. It's also not conveniently accessible if you have to go anywhere outside of Centretown or the Glebe. Even if nothing else in the way of integration is done, just having a *clean* terminal with LRT access would go a long way to making bus transport feel less second-class.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I take your point that transportation can be difficult in small towns, but I have a hard time seeing more intercity buses as a solution to this problem or a path to revitalization of small towns.

I can only offer the personal anecdote that one of the 'carless youths', my decisions as to where I visit and live largely dependent on whether there is good intercity transportation available. I can (and have) make day trips to places like Smith's Falls or Alexandria, but Almonte may as well be on the moon.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I can only offer the personal anecdote that one of the 'carless youths', my decisions as to where I visit and live largely dependent on whether there is good intercity transportation available. I can (and have) make day trips to places like Smith's Falls or Alexandria, but Almonte may as well be on the moon.

I fully understand how you feel. I was also carless at your age. But, we have economic conditions that make it increasingly difficult to have regional bus services that you are hoping for. We are seeing that almost everybody has rejected private bus services to the point that it has become barely viable even on the most popular routes. In most locations, we can hardly get more than one commuter trip per day, which really has very little value for non-commuters, who might want to attend an event in Almonte.

I believe that if we want a regional bus network, then we need something like Go Transit which is backed by the provincial government. It might cover all of Eastern Ontario, with VIA being the backbone serving longer trips.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Why would bus companies want to locate with their direct competition? As was said, maybe somebody coming from Sudbury might change to a train bound for Montreal, which is a loss for the bus company on their Ottawa-Montreal route.

Because the direct competition has a far superior location.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Exurban buses could also operate from the Trainyards, almost like GO services.

That's a great idea. Guarantees usage of the new station even with the decline of inter-city bus lines. It would also increase Tremblay station's usage significantly while leaving other major transfer stations for OC service only.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This plan sort of begs the question. Why didn't they build a transitway connection which terminates at Tremblay and make that station the new Hurdman?

Cost. It would have been much more complicated to cross the SE Transitway at VIA and space was limited (taking out parking spaces would have been out of the question at the time).