DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by Fritzdude

Stanley is a pretty nice retrofit - but getting there is a bit complicated. And the surrounding neighborhood could use some work. I wish a concept this size could work within the city of Denver. Perhaps the RockDrill place can turn out like this?

There is some condo or apartment development that's supposed to go in on the south side of Stanley. But otherwise, that whole area is pretty sketch. Bullet proof windows might be advised.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

There's been some great publicity about Stanley Marketplace and East Stapleton, etc. In case you missed them, here's two: HERE and HERE

All good for my home value!

[COtoOC]

This is an interesting article, originally from the Wall St. Journal, re-posted by Fox Business:

"Denver's investing sector is growing at twice the national average, bolstered by the expansion of the exchange-traded fund industry."


http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/...cut-costs.html

[DenverPoke]

Originally Posted by COtoOC

There is some condo or apartment development that's supposed to go in on the south side of Stanley. But otherwise, that whole area is pretty sketch. Bullet proof windows might be advised.

I believe this is what you are referring to:



http://sararch.com/projects/in-progr...sed-project-2/

[mr1138]

I went for an interesting tour/talk at Stanley featuring the main creator behind the project. He had some interesting things to share about Forest City and the history of the project. He made it sound like Forest City is pretty much completely uninterested in working with local/startup businesses and prefers to lease to national chains. He had originally simply wanted to open a brewpub in Stapleton, and ended up partnering with other businesses to open the Stanley Marketplace in Aurora when it turned out that there was nowhere in Stapleton-proper that would work.

He also talked about the physical divide between Stanley and Stapleton, how Forest City was VERY unhelpful when it came to bridging that divide, and how he had to basically corner Mayor Hancock, an official from DIA, and a representative from Forest City when he had them all in a room together simply to get them to agree to take the chain-link fence on the property line down (each had been telling him the fence was the other party's responsibility in 1-on-1 conversations). It was all pretty interesting, though I couldn't help but think that simply taking the fence down isn't quite enough. The local road network should be punched through that property line in more places - the furthest west a vehicle can cross is 5 blocks east at Fulton St. Any additional road connections are probably pretty unlikely at this point, which is too bad. At least there are pedestrian trails that cross near Clinton St.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by mr1138

I went for an interesting tour/talk at Stanley featuring the main creator behind the project. He had some interesting things to share about Forest City and the history of the project. He made it sound like Forest City is pretty much completely uninterested in working with local/startup businesses and prefers to lease to national chains. He had originally simply wanted to open a brewpub in Stapleton, and ended up partnering with other businesses to open the Stanley Marketplace in Aurora when it turned out that there was nowhere in Stapleton-proper that would work.

He also talked about the physical divide between Stanley and Stapleton, how Forest City was VERY unhelpful when it came to bridging that divide, and how he had to basically corner Mayor Hancock, an official from DIA, and a representative from Forest City when he had them all in a room together simply to get them to agree to take the chain-link fence on the property line down (each had been telling him the fence was the other party's responsibility in 1-on-1 conversations). It was all pretty interesting, though I couldn't help but think that simply taking the fence down isn't quite enough. The local road network should be punched through that property line in more places - the furthest west a vehicle can cross is 5 blocks east at Fulton St. Any additional road connections are probably pretty unlikely at this point, which is too bad. At least there are pedestrian trails that cross near Clinton St.

Interesting. I do like the Beer Garden at Stanley, and the other brewery.

There will be another connector road closer to Stanley. Dayton St. will go through (I think it's Dayton) and it's done. There were still cones up blocking it, but there will be another through street much closer to Stanley.

I can walk from my house to Stanley. It's been great taking the kids over for ice cream or to Bounce.

[jbssfelix]

Originally Posted by mr1138

I went for an interesting tour/talk at Stanley featuring the main creator behind the project. He had some interesting things to share about Forest City and the history of the project. He made it sound like Forest City is pretty much completely uninterested in working with local/startup businesses and prefers to lease to national chains. He had originally simply wanted to open a brewpub in Stapleton, and ended up partnering with other businesses to open the Stanley Marketplace in Aurora when it turned out that there was nowhere in Stapleton-proper that would work.

He also talked about the physical divide between Stanley and Stapleton, how Forest City was VERY unhelpful when it came to bridging that divide, and how he had to basically corner Mayor Hancock, an official from DIA, and a representative from Forest City when he had them all in a room together simply to get them to agree to take the chain-link fence on the property line down (each had been telling him the fence was the other party's responsibility in 1-on-1 conversations). It was all pretty interesting, though I couldn't help but think that simply taking the fence down isn't quite enough. The local road network should be punched through that property line in more places - the furthest west a vehicle can cross is 5 blocks east at Fulton St. Any additional road connections are probably pretty unlikely at this point, which is too bad. At least there are pedestrian trails that cross near Clinton St.

It's this same reason I see more potential in Victory Crossing (assuming it ever comes to fruition)/E Commerce City than I do in Northfield. Less regulation and lower costs means more local pop-ups.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by jbssfelix

It's this same reason I see more potential in Victory Crossing (assuming it ever comes to fruition)/E Commerce City than I do in Northfield. Less regulation and lower costs means more local pop-ups.

Hah! Commerce City is so ass-ed up when it comes to commercial development, plus their sales tax policy is probably the worst in the entire metro area, that it's a wonder that anything has been developed in the city. The total lack of progress at Victory Crossing (amidst one of the largest booms in the state's history) is indicative of this.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by mr1138

I went for an interesting tour/talk at Stanley featuring the main creator behind the project. He had some interesting things to share about Forest City and the history of the project. He made it sound like Forest City is pretty much completely uninterested in working with local/startup businesses and prefers to lease to national chains. He had originally simply wanted to open a brewpub in Stapleton, and ended up partnering with other businesses to open the Stanley Marketplace in Aurora when it turned out that there was nowhere in Stapleton-proper that would work.

I think that there has been a fundamental shift in the last 3-4 years in how Forest City is developing retail in Stapleton. They've gone from being developer/owner to selling the land and letting local companies take over the process. Eastbridge was developed by a local company (and leased to nothing but local companies). The retail in Conservatory Green is similar with a mix of local stores and national chains (though most are first to market concepts). They have kept control over Northfield, but everything else has been developed locally. Which keeps my hopes up for a beer garden north of I-70 as Forest City seems to have adjusted their development process that was so inflexible that it led to the development of the Stanley.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by jbssfelix

It's this same reason I see more potential in Victory Crossing (assuming it ever comes to fruition)/E Commerce City than I do in Northfield. Less regulation and lower costs means more local pop-ups.

The other consideration might be how long Forest City plans to retain an ownership stake in what they've already developed. I don't really know what their business model is, but the early commercial space they developed (specifically at the 29th Town Center) is nearing 15 years old, if I remember correctly. They are also nearing complete buildout of the residential neighborhoods and won't need to think about new home sales for much longer. At some point in the future, they may either decide to sell their commercial property to a new landlord, or simply will have recouped their initial investment and loosen up their desire to only rent to national chains. It's kind of the "trickle down" theory of real estate.

I have heard in the past that large developers tend to prefer national chains, because there is more certainty in the leases that they can sign than with startup or local business. But I tend to think that this is also probably more true when a shopping center is new, and things might loosen up as the buildings age. The "newness" will also wear off, and some of the national chains may decide to relocate to newer developments nearby.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I think that there has been a fundamental shift in the last 3-4 years in how Forest City is developing retail in Stapleton. They've gone from being developer/owner to selling the land and letting local companies take over the process. Eastbridge was developed by a local company (and leased to nothing but local companies). The retail in Conservatory Green is similar with a mix of local stores and national chains (though most are first to market concepts). They have kept control over Northfield, but everything else has been developed locally. Which keeps my hopes up for a beer garden north of I-70 as Forest City seems to have adjusted their development process that was so inflexible that it led to the development of the Stanley.

This is interesting too. I actually wasn't aware that Conservatory Green had very much retail.

On another note, one of the things that I have always admired about Northfield is the adaptability of its design. Once the "newness" wears off (as it inevitably always does in mall-like destination retail centers), I could easily see how the back-side of the various blocks, and potentially even some of the surface parking further out could be developed without a need to scrape the entire retail center - which was always the inherent problem with traditional style malls. They have even installed a quasi-urban street grid through the parking lots, which provides the "structure" for this to be able to happen someday.

And this also relates back to my last comment about national retailers vs. local ones. I could see a future where some of the national retailers - including the big box stores - "move on" to newer developments, and could be replaced with local concepts that don't require the same kind of regional draw for customers, as well as the associated parking demands. The parking could be replaced with higher-density residences, and the stores with more everyday kind of retail (like dry cleaners, convenience stores, barber shops, etc.) to serve those residents.

[jbssfelix]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Hah! Commerce City is so ass-ed up when it comes to commercial development, plus their sales tax policy is probably the worst in the entire metro area, that it's a wonder that anything has been developed in the city. The total lack of progress at Victory Crossing (amidst one of the largest booms in the state's history) is indicative of this.

Noob to the area. Other than being a not-very-desirable area, what's the history behind CC's tax policies and business unfriendliness?

[CONative]

I live in Stapleton near the defunct Victory Crossing and have been following the development since 2012 and have talked to Commerce City planning folks, Kroenke folks and Forest City folks, and it isn't really about the fact that it's Commerce City or that it isn't desirable. It's the fact that the developer can't find investors that want to invest in commercial spaces (offices, sports related commercial, retail, etc) without more "roof tops" or more of a regular major destination reason (not just a few soccer games and concerts per year). The numbers just haven't been there to substantiate the investment. The boom in Denver has really been centered around residential, and Victory Crossing had none of that. Commerce City has been wanting to allow residential in the past year or so on that land surrounding Dick's Park, but need Federal/Govt approval and environmental clearance (which shouldn't be a problem) for that land to be used as residential. Then maybe they can get a little commerical/retail, maybe a gym/sports building, etc. It's just too hard to convince investors that it's a good idea to put in ONLY office/commercial/retail in an area that is just blocks away from the large regional retail/hotel/office center of Northfield & Conservatory Green/Wicker Park retail when the population/roof tops around it don't warrant it and it is further away from the major streets/highways. Forest City Stapleton is also in deep talks with companies for leasing/developing the planned small retail center (similar to Conservatory Green) at the corner of Central Park/56th, so there is already a lot of retail (along with hotel/office) nearby or coming soon. Commerce City has received some of the initial approvals needed for the residential they want, and need the testing/environmental results to come back. Then a new official plan will be implemented by Commerce City and Kroenke. My guess is that the area will end up being multi-family residential with a couple office/light warehouse bldgs (since this is in huge demand in Denver) and maybe a gym/sports center to compliment the sports/events vibe of Dick's. If they are lucky, they might be able to get in a little retail off Quebec or 56th if Forest City/Denver/Stapleton hasn't already saturated the area by then.

Additionally, I often see/hear people mention that they can just put in large developments like a new Elitch's, race track, new Western Complex, etc at the Dick's land. I don't think people realize that the land surrounding Dick's isn't that large for things like that. Once you take out all of those soccer/ball fields, it isn't as large of an area as many think! It isn't even that large for things like that if you wipe out the soccer/ball fields.

[TakeFive]

CONative... Developer/investor/lenders do have their biases and for good reason - according to them.

Hopefully they can ultimately get approval for more residential.


COtoOC... speaking of Stanley Marketplace, yesterday Ashley Dean on Denverite had another fun article.
Sazza and Stanley Marketplace team up on urban farm

[Alchemist]

Originally Posted by Fritzdude

Stanley is a pretty nice retrofit - but getting there is a bit complicated. And the surrounding neighborhood could use some work. I wish a concept this size could work within the city of Denver. Perhaps the RockDrill place can turn out like this?

First there are the plans for the former Denver Post printing plant off of Fox Street. Tryba Architects is handling the master planning.
https://www.trybaarchitects.com/portfolio/fox-north

A site development plan is under review with the city (2950 units!). Of course, the reuse is not just focused on retail but is supposed to include office and 'maker' spaces. That also has the advantage of being just a few blocks north of the 41st/Fox Street G-Line station.

A little further out in time is what may happen with Burnham Yards, now that Union Pacific has (or will) close it.
https://historicdenver.org/wp-conten...2016-FINAL.pdf
There is an old, large, brick warehouse/factory sized building at roughly 8th and Pecos. It's similar in size to the Stanley building (almost a full square block, if you include the more recent additions on the east side) and could make a large food hall/market a la Chelsea Market. Access would be the challenge there. Consolidation of the rail lines into a single corridor would also really help.

[Denver Dweller]

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/07/31...e55a-147998669

[Cirrus]

Slow growth anti-housing initiatives are the left's version of climate change denialism. It's a disaster for the environment and for equity. The left must come to terms with this.

[seventwenty]

Cirrus, while I agree with you, what's your reply to those who say "We need affordable housing for all, not fugly boxes for the rich. These boxes are ruining the city and their materials are killing the environment?" There is an element of truth in there; housing costs are going up faster than wages.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Slow growth anti-housing initiatives are the left's version of climate change denialism. It's a disaster for the environment and for equity. The left must come to terms with this.

I doubt these Lakewood people are coming at this from the left.

[Octavian]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

I doubt these Lakewood people are coming at this from the left.

They're definitely coming from the left in say ... Boulder, or other places like San Francisco.