Broken City

[CONative]

What is amount of Calgary's downtown workforce?

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Doug_Cgy

Yeah...I've heard that, but I've also heard MANY opinions contrary to that as well. I for one plan on being in Calgary for the rest of my life (unless some UNREAL . As much as everyone rants and raves about how great Vancouver is, that's a city I could not see myself living in. To each their own I guess

Yeah, those that just come for the money and leave - well, like you say to each their own, but I really pity them for not finding anything here worth staying for. I suspect in most cases it's the usual "home is where I come from" behaviour. A lot of new Calgarians exhibit this - they don't necessarily have anything overly good to say about their hometown, but it's their hometown, so duh, that's where they're going to end up.

I'd rather live in a city full of people who actually want to be here, and not just those who're here due to accident of birth, anyway. I couldn't possibly imagine giving up the natural wonders and sunshine we enjoy here, but hey - I have friends who've moved away and absolutely LOVE the dreary grey of Seattle.

Guess I'm also nowhere near as mercenary as I used to think. I couldn't imagine living anywhere for more than a few days if I didn't actually like it there. I did have the opportunity to live in Toronto for a few years for a big bundle of money, but as I just didn't want to live there, it didn't make sense for me to move. I couldn't imagine wasting years of my life somewhere where I didn't want to be.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by CONative

What is amount of Calgary's downtown workforce?

I've seen numbers in the 120,000 range in recent years. That's probably a close enough estimate.

Keep in mind this is in a metro area of just over a million people.

[Wooster]

It probably depends how 'downtown' is defined. Most quotes don't include Beltline employment in their numbers. It's probably somewhere between 120,000 and 150,000.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Wooster

It probably depends how 'downtown' is defined. Most quotes don't include Beltline employment in their numbers. It's probably somewhere between 120,000 and 150,000.

Fair enough, and just about any city (especially a US city) would most certainly consider something like the Beltline as 'downtown' - unless they make the old fashioned downtown/uptown distinction, or something similar.

[CONative]

Denver considers a pretty small area for it's downtown (nothing as large as beltline) -- and it's somewhere between 118,000 - 130,000 for it's workforce (depending on who is counting). Of course, the suburban Denver Tech Center also has over 115,000 for its workforce and has a decent suburban skyline. Downtown Denver has also added a lot of new housing units in the past year or so, and will be adding a lot more with several large projects under construction (40 story Spire, 45 story 4 Seasons Residences, etc, etc). Certain light rail lines are also very popular. We also have our share of tall skyscrapers, ya know.

How far is the Saddledome from downtown? It looks like it is somewhat close to downtown. Where are the other venues? How many miles until you hit the Rockies? It's about 16 miles from downtown Denver and the suburbs hug right about against them.

It's amazing how large Calgary's downtown is for a population of 1+ million metro.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by CONative

How far is the Saddledome from downtown? It looks like it is somewhat close to downtown.

Very close. It's not right in the heart of downtown but it's maybe 10-20 blocks from most of it. We have the LRT that bisects the core, and it goes right next to the 'Dome. Unfortunately the free-fare zone that exists downtown does not cover that one last stop, or else I could claim we have a free people-mover to the 'Dome. I've always hated that.

]How many miles until you hit the Rockies? It's about 16 miles from downtown Denver and the suburbs hug right about against them.

The first "major" mountain is about 30 miles from downtown Calgary. Most of the front ranges that you see in our skyline are about 40 miles. 45 miles straight west of downtown is the start of the mountains people see when they drive on the highway heading into them.

They're definitely not as close as Denver but our suburbs on the western side do feel a bit like they're in the foothills at least, even if they're technically not. One thing to note is the Canadian side of the rockies is a different rock type than what you have around Denver - consequently we don't have much in the way of the smaller front ranges. Most parts of the mountains here butt up against very low rolling foothills mixed with flat prairie, suddenly transitioning straight into a 3000' or higher vertical face. It's an impressive effect but it does mean that we don't have the "suburb" mountains that you do like surrounding Golden or Boulder. However, once you're in our mountains, you're IN them. Pretty much the very first few high peaks are well above the treeline. There's no gradual height increase.

[wild wild west]

Re: downtown employment, last I heard I think it was 140,000.

re: Denver Tech Centre - that is quite the impressive suburban skyline...certainly Calgary does not have any suburban employment centres even remotely close to that big.

[frinkprof]

Lots of talk in the Calgary Construction thread about streetwalls and midrises, and cities to emulate (Philadelphia and Portland came up). What comes to mind, to me, is parts of Montreal with some decent blocks with a consistent streetwall. I've heard that Buenos Aries and Barcelona are great examples of achieving densities through midrises.

I'd like to see corridors like Centre Street, 17th Avenue (both SE, and the portion between 14th and 37th Streets west), Macleod Trail (from 25th Avenue all the way to Chinook Centre) get a good streetwall going with mostly midrises (5-10 storeys) with towers at certain nodes. It would be great to see some of this happening in the next upswing in the real-estate market.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Lots of talk in the Calgary Construction thread about streetwalls and midrises, and cities to emulate (Philadelphia and Portland came up). What comes to mind, to me, is parts of Montreal with some decent blocks with a consistent streetwall. I've heard that Buenos Aries and Barcelona are great examples of achieving densities through midrises.

I'd like to see corridors like Centre Street, 17th Avenue (both SE, and the portion between 14th and 37th Streets west), Macleod Trail (from 25th Avenue all the way to Chinook Centre) get a good streetwall going with mostly midrises (5-10 storeys) with towers at certain nodes. It would be great to see some of this happening in the next upswing in the real-estate market.

Most definitely. There's already some street-wally 50's retail (think Taj Mahal/Memory Express and the hobby shop across the street from them) but it's too patchy to really do anything, having some redevelopment to fill in the gaps would be great.

I'm wondering if someone in the know has any idea about typical lowrise retail rents in this city. What I mean by that is retail spaces in places like 17th ave, and 10th/11th/12th aves (think the old electric ave block on 11th between 5th and 6th sts). The reason I ask is many cities don't have such a large CBD as Calgary, and there tends to be a sort of depressed 'belt' between the CBD and residential, one that's full of holes, has older low rise buildings etc. One of the good things about that is the rents are likely (or are they) lower than a place like Calgary where there's the CBD, 10th/11th/12th, and then residential. I'm curious if the lack of that belt, and the heat of the office market is detrimental to interesting but perhaps not hugely profitable businesses in this city. Or maybe that's not the case at all, but I'm curious about it.

[Just Build It]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

:

Length of 16st pedestrian mall, 1 mile
(equivalent to about city hall to 8th st sw in Calgary)

# of Bars & Restaurants (this includes any sort of food service establishment) in Denver's downtown: `~324

# of Bars & Restaurants within 1 block of the pedestrian mall: ~160

# of downtown horse and carriage companies: 28
# of pedestrian mall restarants/bars with sidewalk patios: 36
# of sidewalk foot vendors on pedestrian mall (think portable carts): 39

Denver also has a warehouse district, known as Lower Downtown or Lodo, and some specs from that area:

24 restaraunts and bars
11 architectural firms
7 galleries
11 stores
12 personal services
plus museums, offices, etc

Trying to analyze why there was so so many shops/pubs/restaurants it occured to me, that for Calgary to be somewhat equivalent, 17th ave west to about 36 st sw, centre north to 32nd ave, 10th ave and 11th aves (with some 12th ave action), 9th ave in inglewood , and our 'warehouse district' would all have to be retail and entertainment, when in reality they're either extremely patchy, or partially overrun with office uses.


So I guess the purpose of this unstructured pile of info, is to get people's comments, wondering if there's anything to be drawn from a city that seems to 'work' as far as downtown pedestrian life which could be applied here in Calgary, or if people think that the direction Calgary is going will get there soon enough, or if it's just a lost cause.

Well, here's my comment. You can't fairly compare a Calgary to a city with three times the population. You should be comparing Calgary to places like Tulsa or Omaha. Those cities have similar populations.

Granted I've only been to downtown Denver once, but as I remember it, downtown did seem pretty busy, but not much busier than say 17th ave or Kensington. The downtown ped mall was busier than Stephen Ave mall after hours, but not during the day.

Keep in mind when comparing to other cities, not to use Calgary's CBD as your reference for comparison. 'Downtown' is not just the CBD.

[devonb]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Most definitely. There's already some street-wally 50's retail (think Taj Mahal/Memory Express and the hobby shop across the street from them) but it's too patchy to really do anything, having some redevelopment to fill in the gaps would be great.

I mentioned this before in the construction thread, but I know the Crescent Heights Community Association has approved a zoning change for the Tigerstaedt building on Centre St. and 8 Ave. They're saying they want a 6-8 story mixed use building with wide pedestrian friendly walkways. Supposedly, there is a reputable company interested in the site. This would be along the lines of what people have been talking about with midrise density, as well as the talk in the construction thread about what makes an area desirable (and too many highrise condos isn't good).

The community association here is quite tight and they've made the statement that they want this first project to really set the standard with how development will happen along Centre St. Should be interesting to see what unfolds. A good project in a location like that could do wonders for the street life. It's amazing what a small restaurant like Diner Deluxe has done for Edmonton Trail. People are actually hanging out and using the sidewalks.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by devonb

I mentioned this before in the construction thread, but I know the Crescent Heights Community Association has approved a zoning change for the Tigerstaedt building on Centre St. and 8 Ave. They're saying they want a 6-8 story mixed use building with wide pedestrian friendly walkways. Supposedly, there is a reputable company interested in the site. This would be along the lines of what people have been talking about with midrise density, as well as the talk in the construction thread about what makes an area desirable (and too many highrise condos isn't good).

The community association here is quite tight and they've made the statement that they want this first project to really set the standard with how development will happen along Centre St. Should be interesting to see what unfolds. A good project in a location like that could do wonders for the street life. It's amazing what a small restaurant like Diner Deluxe has done for Edmonton Trail. People are actually hanging out and using the sidewalks.

Good to hear. If I were a developer now, Centre would be of huge interest. Lots of awesome potential all the way from 8th street up to 28th.

[s211]

Originally Posted by amaruk

I went out for beers with a couple of co-workers last week and we got onto the discussion of Calgary and our thoughts on the city (2 are NFLD transplants, one Vancouverite, and myself the Torontonian). All of us said we won't be staying in Calgary, it's more of a place to get your career started, then leave and go elsewhere. This isn't the first time I've talked to people about this, and I think this mentality is a hindrance to making Calgary a great city. Obviously, I'm being completely hypocritical here since I'm in that boat, but it very much reminded me of when I was in Johannesburg and a friend said "no one wants to live in Joburg, we just come here to make money and leave". If the people moving to Calgary never intend to stay here, I think it makes it more difficult to create the 'feel' everyone likes in a great city, if that makes sense. I not sure if anyone else has experienced this, but I'd love to hear some opinions.

I've lost count of the number of people I've met that basically moved to Calgary in order to breed. "It's a safe place to raise kids."

[240glt]

Originally Posted by s211

I've lost count of the number of people I've met that basically moved to Calgary in order to breed. "It's a safe place to raise kids."

Most of the people I know who moved to Calgary from BC in the 90's after school have left once they started having kids. Most headed back to the interior or suburban Vancouver, quite a few headed for places like Lethbridge or Saskatoon. Most of my friends still in Calgary are either DINKS or still single.

[Just Build It]

Originally Posted by 240glt

Most of the people I know who moved to Calgary from BC in the 90's after school have left once they started having kids. Most headed back to the interior or suburban Vancouver, quite a few headed for places like Lethbridge or Saskatoon. Most of my friends still in Calgary are either DINKS or still single.

There has been alot of that happening (just like every other major metropolitan area), but despite that Calgary still has a higher proportion of people under the age of 5 or under the age of 9 than any of the the cities you've mentioned.

[wild wild west]

Originally Posted by Just Build It

Well, here's my comment. You can't fairly compare a Calgary to a city with three times the population. You should be comparing Calgary to places like Tulsa or Omaha. Those cities have similar populations.

Well, not really...metro Tulsa or Omaha, covering thousands of square miles each, are still smaller in population than Calgary city alone. Those cities are closer in population to Winnipeg than to Calgary. A more apt comparison might be Jacksonville, Memphis or Salt Lake. And in comparison to those cities' downtowns, I think we are doing very well.

Besides, I would argue metro population isn't that relevant to the health of downtown once cities reach "critical mass" size. Detroit, San Bernardino/Riverside and Phoenix are examples of large metropolitan areas that have weak downtowns. Calgary's population may be only 1.2 million, but its downtown workforce is comparable to that of much larger cities - so the scale of the downtown core, workforce, etc. is directly comparable to Denver's.

[Stephen Ave]

I agree wholeheartedly about that kind of attitude being a hindrance. In the past I've been guilty of that very mentality. When I first moved here (1998), I kept telling myself (and other people) that I was going to move back. Many of the people I hung our without were transplants like myself, and we often talked about how and when we were going to leave. Some of those friends did follow through and ended up leaving, but most are still here, and plan to stay. I'm pretty sure I'm here for good now.

What I've observed about Calgary, is that alot the people that move to the city stay. That's one reason the city has grown so fast - its ability to attract people and keep them.

Originally Posted by amaruk

I went out for beers with a couple of co-workers last week and we got onto the discussion of Calgary and our thoughts on the city (2 are NFLD transplants, one Vancouverite, and myself the Torontonian). All of us said we won't be staying in Calgary, it's more of a place to get your career started, then leave and go elsewhere. This isn't the first time I've talked to people about this, and I think this mentality is a hindrance to making Calgary a great city. Obviously, I'm being completely hypocritical here since I'm in that boat, but it very much reminded me of when I was in Johannesburg and a friend said "no one wants to live in Joburg, we just come here to make money and leave". If the people moving to Calgary never intend to stay here, I think it makes it more difficult to create the 'feel' everyone likes in a great city, if that makes sense. I not sure if anyone else has experienced this, but I'd love to hear some opinions.

[jeffwhit]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but it's the one that seemed like the best place to post and discuss Naheed Nenshi's TEDxCalgary talk.

• Video Link

[Rusty van Reddick]

Originally Posted by jeffwhit

Sorry to bump an old thread, but it's the one that seemed like the best place to post and discuss Naheed Nenshi's TEDxYYC talk.

Not meaning to nitpick, but this is TEDxCalgary. TEDxYYC, like TEDxUofC, were separate events with separate organizers.