Sacramento Proposal/Approval/Construction Thread - III

[travis bickle]

Originally Posted by ozone

Again I disagree that just because things worked like so in Richmond or San Diego that they must necessarily work that way elsewhere. As you know Richmond is a very different situation than Rancho Cordova with a lot more stigma attached to it.

The Rancho project does has the one requirement that is necessary -a light rail station. In some ways does it matter if there's not a lot to walk to right around the towers? Residents can just hop on the train to the next station (the future walkable downtown Rancho), or go into downtown Sacramento or Folsom. Highrise living that is less expensive than downtown Sacramento, close to employment centers, and on the transit line is the selling point. People wouldn't get as excited about a midrise.

Well, perhaps it has changed over the years, but I do recall some stigma regarding Rancho, nothing like Richmond of course, but it wasn't exactly considered a first-choice for homes in the Sacramento area. That very well may have changed, but I would imagine some stigma lingers. Also, so far, Rancho has little, if any street life. Rancho's office space is spread across the entire corridor and there is little, if any destination retail that entices people from outside the immediate area. Rancho has a few hotels of note including the former Sheraton (what is it now?), but fewer than 500 quality rooms total. None of that suggest a viable market for two 36 story residential towers.

Contrast that with UTC and Mission Valley - both of which enjoy large populations in dense housing, numerous top-grade hotels and destination retail. Although neither is particularly pedestrian friendly (the Malls would prefer you spend all of your money there), some efforts are being made to improve this with separate pedestrian systems using bridges over streets that tie in directly to interest points.

As far as a transit line being the key to success - my point above disputes that given that UTC has several high-rise condos but zero rail transit of any kind. Mission Valley has at least six stations that I can recall and no residential housing above six stories - let alone 36.

High-rise housing is so much more expensive than low and mid-rise that the economics demand far more amenities/infrastructure/population be in place or you have some kind of unique attraction to have it pencil out. Rancho Cordova has neither.

People may not get as excited about mid-/low rise as they do high-rise, but is that excitement alone worth an extra $400k to them? I doubt it. People do get excited by the opportunity to leave their cars at home. A more modest project can deliver that to them at a fraction of the cost and with densities that can support a TOD.

[bennywah]

^

with mission valley running out of usable land to support more townhouse style homes, I suspect that the next boom in mid rise high rise living will be in mission valley, especially if the chargers do move out of qualcom and that land becomes available for development, or the chargers can go forward with their development plans. Rancho could develop like mission valley and support class a high rise offices, and dense housing clusters then move into mid to high rise living over a period of time, hell downtown Sacramento in areas could be doing that, some of the smaller yet still high rise condo towers proposed after the towers and aura could probably be pretty successful even in the depressed market right now if they focused on those towers vs iconic structures whose cost go up substantially.

Enough of say 20-30+ story towers go up successfully in a 5-10 year period bringing in a higher population base will dictate market conditions which will support office and residential towers over 500 feet, or 30-50 plus stories. since sac has no real high rise condo's currently any development over 20 plus stories would be an improvment and with nearly 600 people already wanting to live in the towers and aura 2 to 3 towers with 200 condos a piece could easily do well even now.

obviously no one area will develop the same as another but certain factors and conditions can be similar and give an accurate prediction of how successful something might be. Also utc with its college students in the area using shuttles and having retail and jobs nearby dont need to leave the area as much as thos living in roseville, laguna/elk grove per se and even though its a ways off eventually the trolley system will expand to that area of san diego, and if light-rail went to laguna west that area might get some localized mid rise residential which might spur more office development in southern sac county, in any case it'll be interesting to watch over the next few years good urban planning is about using the most of an area, not just one particular area, and if residents come along so too will the ammenities that are needed to support their living situations.

[downtownserg89]

howdy y'all.

i was late night bike riding last night and noticed that the calpers site in west sac is finally building up! theres like steel being erected. idk if someone already mentioned this. k bye.

[travis bickle]

Originally Posted by bennywah

^

with mission valley running out of usable land to support more townhouse style homes, I suspect that the next boom in mid rise high rise living will be in mission valley, especially if the chargers do move out of qualcom and that land becomes available for development, or the chargers can go forward with their development plans. Rancho could develop like mission valley and support class a high rise offices, and dense housing clusters then move into mid to high rise living over a period of time, hell downtown Sacramento in areas could be doing that, some of the smaller yet still high rise condo towers proposed after the towers and aura could probably be pretty successful even in the depressed market right now if they focused on those towers vs iconic structures whose cost go up substantially.

Enough of say 20-30+ story towers go up successfully in a 5-10 year period bringing in a higher population base will dictate market conditions which will support office and residential towers over 500 feet, or 30-50 plus stories. since sac has no real high rise condo's currently any development over 20 plus stories would be an improvement and with nearly 600 people already wanting to live in the towers and aura 2 to 3 towers with 200 condos a piece could easily do well even now.

obviously no one area will develop the same as another but certain factors and conditions can be similar and give an accurate prediction of how successful something might be. Also utc with its college students in the area using shuttles and having retail and jobs nearby dont need to leave the area as much as thos living in roseville, laguna/elk grove per se and even though its a ways off eventually the trolley system will expand to that area of san diego, and if light-rail went to laguna west that area might get some localized mid rise residential which might spur more office development in southern sac county, in any case it'll be interesting to watch over the next few years good urban planning is about using the most of an area, not just one particular area, and if residents come along so too will the ammenities that are needed to support their living situations.

It would not surprise me at all to see high-residential start getting proposed for Mission Valley. It has everything else (large, dense existing population/millions of sq. ft. of destination retail - Saks, Nordstrom, Nieman-Marcus, Bloomingdales, millions of feet of office space and six light rail stations) including expensive land.

Indeed Rancho could someday develop like Mission Valley. But the key term here is someday. Not even Mission Valley has twin 36 story condo towers. I imagine the first Mission Valley towers would be in the 20 story/180 unit range. But that means that the first high-rise residential there will be proposed at least 40 years after the first shopping centers were built.

Rancho should learn to walk before it tries a marathon.

[Sacto]

Originally Posted by downtownserg89

howdy y'all.

i was late night bike riding last night and noticed that the calpers site in west sac is finally building up! theres like steel being erected. idk if someone already mentioned this. k bye.

What happend to your camera?

[creamcityleo79]

Originally Posted by travis bickle

Well, perhaps it has changed over the years, but I do recall some stigma regarding Rancho, nothing like Richmond of course, but it wasn't exactly considered a first-choice for homes in the Sacramento area. That very well may have changed, but I would imagine some stigma lingers. Also, so far, Rancho has little, if any street life. Rancho's office space is spread across the entire corridor and there is little, if any destination retail that entices people from outside the immediate area. Rancho has a few hotels of note including the former Sheraton (what is it now?), but fewer than 500 quality rooms total. None of that suggest a viable market for two 36 story residential towers.

The current hotel that was the Sheraton is now the Marriott. Rancho is a MAJOR employment hub in the Sacramento region. There are HUGE subdivisions planned, under construction and completed. Rancho may have had a reputation in the past. But, I think Anatolia and Stone Creek are bucking that trend...and fast. Add to that the more urban development going on in Capital Center and you have a good mix of affordable, urban, suburban, and median priced housing in Rancho. I'm surprised you would make comments like this about Rancho. Take a trip down Folsom Blvd and it's not the same Folsom it was 5 or 6 years ago. Some of the old, abandoned and run down business are out and new businesses take their place. Folsom is receiving a beautification project through its entire run through Rancho. The old field that used to be on the SE corner of Mather Field Rd and US-50 is now a 3-story apt complex that has prices starting at about $1000 for a 1 bedroom. The strip mall that houses Raley's is just finishing a refacing. The apartment complexes on West La Loma and Routier have been repainted and landscaped. There are still some rough parts. But, zoning and regulation by the city is pushing the bad out and cleaning up the blight. They have a task force that enforces laws about blight and trash on lawns and stuff. They just reopened the Kilgore Cemetery on Kilgore Rd after a $2 million restoration. The Target on Olson is going to be starting an expansion and renovation soon that will bring more tenants to that strip mall. Also, the entrance will now be on Folsom Blvd. Take a look at the city website and see. Better yet, take a trip to Rancho and see. Crime is going down, property values are going up (which is the opposite of most of the metro area), and the city is really on it's way to being something great. So, go and see Rancho NOW before judging it on it's past.

[Phillip]

Originally Posted by ozone

I don't why you are comparing San Diego's progression with what's going on in Rancho or anywhere else. Things do not always follow the same set patterns and timelines. 20 years ago there wasn't the boom of highrise living in the smaller markets that we have today.

Things don't unfold exactly the same in any two cities but I can't think of anyplace that's built 36 or 54 story condos before they've built (and sold) 10, 15, 20 stories.

Portland and Seattle have successfully put up dozens of condo towers over a period of more than 30 years, and none of those towers in either city comes close to 54 stories. What model is Sacramento following in thinking that 54 stories Downtown or 36 stories in Rancho is a starting point? It's like enrolling a toddler in college.

If a high amenity four or five story condo, something similiar to 1801 L, was built next to the Sunrise transit station in Rancho I think that would be an a huge achievment for greater Sacramento and a great start for more and larger light rail oriented housing in the future. Btw, some of the fourth or fifth floor views from the hotels in Rancho are really nice, especially to the west.

edited to add: I meant the views to east are inspiring--towards the Sierra foothills--not the west. But the sunsets to the west from Rancho can be awesome, even if the streetscape isn't.

Sometimes things that are ugly at ground level become interesting from just a couple stories up. Some of the rooms at La Quinta overlook the Sunrise exit ramp off of Highway 50. That intersection is hideous when you're in your car. But looking down from 4 or 5 stories, seeing the six lanes of traffic split into three different directions it reminds me of an aorta (Highway 50) with smaller arteries branching off....I can stand in the window and watch the traffic flowing off of 50 for a long time. I like it. It beats work, lol.

[Phillip]

Originally Posted by neuhickman79

Better yet, take a trip to Rancho and see. Crime is going down, property values are going up (which is the opposite of most of the metro area), and the city is really on it's way to being something great. So, go and see Rancho NOW before judging it on it's past.

I'm fond of Rancho Cordova too and the recent improvements you cite are real. But I do still think of Rancho as a ghetto place, incrementally better than 10 years ago, but still demographically more akin to Fulton Avenue or Stockton Blvd than to other suburbs like Folsom or Roseville.

I think high density housing along the Rancho light rail is a terrific idea but I would't try to sell it on the basis that Rancho is actually a much nicer place than its reputation, because really a lot of its reputation is rooted in fact and unfortunately some of the worst areas are the apartment complexes very near the light rail.

It's an oddity that this huge concentration of jobs and hotels exists so near to so many downscale neighborhoods, but really it's two different Ranchos coexisting side by side. The year that I worked at an office park in Rancho not one person in my work group of about 40 lived in Rancho. Mostly Roseville, Folsom, and Elk Grove. (I lived in Midtown.)

I don't think bringing in upscale housing and shopping will make the other Rancho go away, but I think the two can coexist side by side, sort of like Palo Alto and East Palo Alto, or Portland's Pearl District, where $500,000+ condos and boutiques flourish a couple blocks from scary streets of entrenched open air drug trafficking.

To many people the mix makes a more vibrant and interesting area than homogenously upscale areas like Folsom or Granite Bay.

[Phillip]

Originally Posted by neuhickman79

The current hotel that was the Sheraton is now the Marriott.

I think that Sheraton to Marriott change happened several years ago but there's been a lot of flux in the Rancho hotel market lately. All within a year:

Holiday Inn became La Quinta.

Fairfield Inn became Vagabond Inn

Days Inn became Red Roof Inn.

And the Amerisuites will soon become Hyatt Place

I'm pretty sure Rancho is the second largest hotel submarket in greater Sacramento, after Downtown. But Natomas is catching up to Rancho fast.

[creamcityleo79]

Originally Posted by Phillip

I'm fond of Rancho Cordova too and the recent improvements you cite are real. But I do still think of Rancho as a ghetto place, incrementally better than 10 years ago, but still demographically more akin to Fulton Avenue or Stockton Blvd than to other suburbs like Folsom or Roseville.

I think high density housing along the Rancho light rail is a terrific idea but I would't try to sell it on the basis that Rancho is actually a much nicer place than its reputation, because really a lot of its reputation is rooted in fact and unfortunately some of the worst areas are the apartment complexes very near the light rail.

It's an oddity that this huge concentration of jobs and hotels exists so near to so many downscale neighborhoods, but really it's two different Ranchos coexisting side by side. The year that I worked at an office park in Rancho not one person in my work group of about 40 lived in Rancho. Mostly Roseville, Folsom, and Elk Grove. (I lived in Midtown.)

I don't think bringing in upscale housing and shopping will make the other Rancho go away, but I think the two can coexist side by side, sort of like Palo Alto and East Palo Alto, or Portland's Pearl District, where $500,000+ condos and boutiques flourish a couple blocks from scary streets of entrenched open air drug trafficking.

To many people the mix makes a more vibrant and interesting area than homogenously upscale areas like Folsom or Granite Bay.

Keep in mind that a major freeway (US-50), a major street (Folsom Blvd), and railroad tracks separate the Rancho Cordova you're talking about with the proposed site. They're not next to each other. I'd say the bad neighborhood is probably 2 miles down the street. I live in a Rancho Cordova zip code (although it's actually unincorporated Sacramento), my husband works in Rancho Cordova (Sprint), and we do most of our business and shopping in Rancho Cordova. It's not the Rancho Cordova it was before. Where there are bad neighborhoods, they usually extend 1-2 blocks from the major streets, if that. The closer you get to the river, the nicer the houses are. Take a loop around La Loma/West La Loma sometime and see what happens 1-2 blocks from Folsom on either side. The houses get nicer and nicer and nicer. Go down Rod Beaudry and look at the mansions by the river down that street. Also, you can go to the Sun River neighborhood and see a nice neighborhood. I could go on and on and on. Rancho Cordova has SO much going for it and what was bad before sometimes isn't. The city government is beginning to instill civic pride that may be unheard of in Sacramento. Take a trip...you'll see!

[Phillip]

Originally Posted by neuhickman79

Rancho Cordova has SO much going for it and what was bad before sometimes isn't. The city government is beginning to instill civic pride that may be unheard of in Sacramento. Take a trip...you'll see!

Next time I get a craving for Tugboat fish and chips I'll go look at those nice neighborhoods too.

[innov8]

Originally Posted by Sacto

What happend to your camera?

Here ya go... More under highrise construction.

[Yogi916]

Interesting to read some of the comments that a project like the Point East Towers in Rancho that proposes two 36 story towers is overly ambitious and that to "start out of the gate" with these is a bit premature. Two things come to mind that I would want the others to consider and get their take on...

1) This project will take 2 years approx to get through Planning. And thats considering there are no design changes or significant hurdles. That is if everything went smoothly. It would then take aprox another year to get through the Building Permit process. Again if there were no significant design changes or hurdles. By the time it breaks ground, it would take another 2-3 years to build. That means the project even with a very pain free estimate of the timeline would not be done for another approx 6 years from now. If things go like things always go in development and construction, we're probably talking 8-10 years until completion.

What will Downtown Sac density be like by then?
What will Rancho Cordova density and quality of life be like by then?
What will land value near light rail, freeway, and major intersection of streets like Sunrise Blvd and Folsom Blvd be by then?
What will the supply of that type of land be like by then?
What will gas prices and traffic be like by then?
What will the population of the Greater Sacramento area be like by then?
How much more environmentally conscious will society as a whole be by then? And what will that mean as far as attitudes towards vertical development?

Those are the types of questions I think are important to consider. Questions about the future of the area.

2) The long term plan for Regional Transit is to work with developers on establishing quality "destination centers" at light rail stations all along Folsom Blvd. Its happening at 12th St, 65th St, Butterfield, Sunrise, Cemo Circle, etc. There is a proposed 4-5 story over concrete parking, approx 150-175 residential for sale condo project, with half being affordable "work force housing" units, that is being proposed at the Sunrise Station by the same developer and RT. This would potentially mean a 4-5 story project directly across from the proposed Point East Towers. And because of its size, this project would be well complete before the Towers. It would also include retail and be pedestrian friendly. And again, it would be connected via Light Rail to other "Destination Centers".

[travis bickle]

Originally Posted by neuhickman79

The current hotel that was the Sheraton is now the Marriott. Rancho is a MAJOR employment hub in the Sacramento region. There are HUGE subdivisions planned, under construction and completed. Rancho may have had a reputation in the past. But, I think Anatolia and Stone Creek are bucking that trend...and fast. Add to that the more urban development going on in Capital Center and you have a good mix of affordable, urban, suburban, and median priced housing in Rancho. I'm surprised you would make comments like this about Rancho. Take a trip down Folsom Blvd and it's not the same Folsom it was 5 or 6 years ago. Some of the old, abandoned and run down business are out and new businesses take their place. Folsom is receiving a beautification project through its entire run through Rancho. The old field that used to be on the SE corner of Mather Field Rd and US-50 is now a 3-story apt complex that has prices starting at about $1000 for a 1 bedroom. The strip mall that houses Raley's is just finishing a refacing. The apartment complexes on West La Loma and Routier have been repainted and landscaped. There are still some rough parts. But, zoning and regulation by the city is pushing the bad out and cleaning up the blight. They have a task force that enforces laws about blight and trash on lawns and stuff. They just reopened the Kilgore Cemetery on Kilgore Rd after a $2 million restoration. The Target on Olson is going to be starting an expansion and renovation soon that will bring more tenants to that strip mall. Also, the entrance will now be on Folsom Blvd. Take a look at the city website and see. Better yet, take a trip to Rancho and see. Crime is going down, property values are going up (which is the opposite of most of the metro area), and the city is really on it's way to being something great. So, go and see Rancho NOW before judging it on it's past.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever towards Rancho. It has undoubtedly greatly improved since I lived in the Sacramento area. Is it ready for two 36 story condos when it doesn't have a single 5 story residential structure? I think the answer is no. If this project gets financing and sells out, then I'm wrong and good for Rancho.

[SacTownAndy]

My whole take on this is that they should let the market dictate what should be built. If it dictates a 36-story tower, then I'm all for it.

[TowerDistrict]

2 years for for planning, 1 year for permits, 2-3 years for construction, 6-10 years for completion?

May i ask if this is the amount of time you want it to take? I'm usually under the assumption a developer would like to get their project under way ASAP for a myriad of reasons - I just can't fathom why a developer wouldn't take their project elsewhere with that sort of time frame. Pending you had the means and the will, you could put two of these projects up in downtown sacramento in the same amount of time.

I do appreciate an eye on the future, and I can understand if a project's intention is to anticipate the future of the region... I'm just curious as to why that time frame is acceptable in Rancho, considering Sacramento's massive efforts to cut that process down to a matter of months?

[robw340]

Originally Posted by innov8

Here ya go... More under highrise construction.

Great shot of 621 Mike ....It's turning out to be a very interesting building ...cant wait to see the finished product

[innov8]

Thanks robw340 621CM has some impressive angles.

[Sacto]

Originally Posted by innov8

621CM has some impressive angles.

Agreed. Thanks for the pics! 621 is lookin good so far.

[downtownserg89]

well innov8 beat me. but yeah my internet is not working, so thats why i havent been on here for a while. i'm at my friend's house right now.
but i will have a photoshoot soon!