Could Canada survive Quebec separation?

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

All in all Quebec has an amazing deal in Canada, whether they admit it or not. Sure things aren't perfect and 100% of the way THEY want it, but its a good compromise in their favour right now. But if they keep believing these idiot sovereigntists and think independence is viable, it'll be there loss that they'll come crawling back to the ROC!

this sort of rhetoric reminds me more of the ravings of an alcoholic husband than sober economic anaysis.

i am in no way a quebec separatist, by the way, nor am i a francophone. i am in fact someone whose position and livelihood -- both professionally and personally -- could be injured by the independence movement much more than could some of yours.

that said, i still think this line of rhetoric is stupid and emotional. nothing is gained by this. no understanding, no expansion of dialogue, nothing.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

The thing that worries me the most about a Quebec separation is the existence of French as an official language.

We lose the majority of our French speakers, so why keep it? But if we lose it we alienate the population that still speaks French as well as our long history.

Just because things change, doesn't mean we lose the history. You can't alter the past, and therefore your history will remain the same no matter what you do in the future.

[-Harlington-]

Quebec is part of Canada
Its Canadian, end of story

[ConundrumNL]

Originally Posted by SpikePhanta

Not in population and economy.

Even 0.01 is a difference in economic sense.

It would be interesting to see if a Western Canada seperation movement starts in the future.

If Quebec did separate, I think separation movements could pop up in other parts of the country ( the West, the Maritimes, and Newfoundland, etc..)

[AuxTown]

Ottawa-Gatineau would be in a very interesting position if Quebec were to separate. Gatineau has thousands of federal government offices and the majority of them are filled by Ontarians. On the other hand, go stand by any construction site in Ottawa and listen to the language being spoken. The skilled labour force commuting from the Quebec side is huge. In short, there would be a mass exodus from Gatineau/Hull/Aylmer as people have to move back to Canada for work. The Quebec government may put their own offices in Gatineau, but it would take decades for the city to recover. You guys think we could keep Gatineau?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

Ottawa-Gatineau would be in a very interesting position if Quebec were to separate. Gatineau has thousands of federal government offices and the majority of them are filled by Ontarians. On the other hand, go stand by any construction site in Ottawa and listen to the language being spoken. The skilled labour force commuting from the Quebec side is huge. In short, there would be a mass exodus from Gatineau/Hull/Aylmer as people have to move back to Canada for work. The Quebec government may put their own offices in Gatineau, but it would take decades for the city to recover. You guys think we could keep Gatineau?

I can't dispute the links between Ottawa and Gatineau since I have lived them myself much of my life.

That said, Gatineau as an 85% francophone city of 275,000 people would be something of an oddity in a Canada-sans-Quebec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by cormiermax

I could see movements in parts of New Brunswick popping up in support of annexation from Quebec. I cant see the Acadians being comfortable with French being such a small minority nationally, as they aren't even comfortable with the way things are in New Brunswick now.

Especially in northern New Brunswick, Acadians tend to be a feisty bunch when it comes to language. That said, I am not sure about the chances of them joining up with an independent Quebec. Canada-sans-Quebec and the province of New Brunswick would have to screw them around in order for them to entertain that option. This is not entirely impossible of course, but it would take more than just being nervous about francophone population numbers in Canada-sans-Quebec in order to push them over the edge.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

this sort of rhetoric reminds me more of the ravings of an alcoholic husband than sober economic anaysis.

i am in no way a quebec separatist, by the way, nor am i a francophone. i am in fact someone whose position and livelihood -- both professionally and personally -- could be injured by the independence movement much more than could some of yours.

that said, i still think this line of rhetoric is stupid and emotional. nothing is gained by this. no understanding, no expansion of dialogue, nothing.

God himself will severely punish the Québécois if ever they opt for independence from Canada. Mark my words.

[someone123]

I don't think Quebec separation will happen because I don't think it's very practical.

However, if it did happen I believe it would play out differently than many in this thread have suggested. It is a gross oversimplification to say something like "Quebec gets X in equalization so if they separate they will be X dollars poorer". That's not how it would work -- the overall economic system of Quebec and of Canada would change (so for example residents of Quebec would not send taxes to Ottawa or use financial institutions with HQs in Toronto). I don't believe that Quebec is as favoured by the current situation as most people suppose. The same is true of Atlantic Canada, which managed to be very prosperous during its 250+ years of independence from the rest of what is now Canada. In fact the common trend in the Atlantic region was that the more it was left alone by distant governments the better off it was.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't think Quebec separation will happen because I don't think it's very practical.

However, if it did happen I believe it would play out differently than many in this thread have suggested. It is a gross oversimplification to say something like "Quebec gets X in equalization so if they separate they will be X dollars poorer". That's not how it would work -- the overall economic system of Quebec and of Canada would change (so for example residents of Quebec would not send taxes to Ottawa or use financial institutions with HQs in Toronto). I don't believe that Quebec is as favoured by the current situation as most people suppose. The same is true of Atlantic Canada, which managed to be very prosperous during its 250+ years of independence from the rest of what is now Canada. In fact the common trend in the Atlantic region was that the more it was left alone by distant governments the better off it was.

Excellent observations as usual. It is somewhat depressing and even worrisome to see how widespread the sentiment is that the rest of Canada seemingly has Quebec over a barrel. It is no wonder that making changes that would improve the federation has become next to impossible.

Consider that probably 85% of everything that is found in the cupboards of my household here in Quebec (from detergent to crackers to ketchup to soda pop, etc.) came from somewhere in Ontario. And that this true of every single household in Quebec.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

that said, i still think this line of rhetoric is stupid and emotional. nothing is gained by this. no understanding, no expansion of dialogue, nothing.

I don't think its emotional but based on facts.

If Canada just caved into Quebec, gave them a constitutional veto, ended the monarchy, gave them more jurisdictional powers, endless transfers & equalization with no strings attached, in what way does that benefit Canada?

That seems to be the demands (with the exception of the monarchy) that Quebec wants of Canada in constitutional negotiations (Meech, Charlottetown, etc.). That Quebec wants to essentially dominate confederation, they want everything done their way and ONLY THEIR WAY yet are not willing to give anything up! Essentially the ROC would be a colony of the Quebec and whatever they think being supreme to the ROC. There is no dialogue its just Quebec demanding they get XY & Z and ROC getting nothing and little say about it!

To think that somehow Quebec would do better outside of Canadian confederation is a soverigntists fantasy!

[M II A II R II K]

Technically Quebec is also Latin America but if it separates it could be more like Latin America economically.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

That Quebec wants to essentially dominate confederation, they want everything done their way and ONLY THEIR WAY yet are not willing to give anything up! !

Correction: they want everything done their way INSIDE Quebec. They don't care how you want to live or do things in Head-Smashed-In-Buffalo-Jump or wherever else...

What I have done here is a huge simplification of a highly complex issue, but it nonetheless does sum it up fairly well.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

Quebec wants to essentially dominate confederation...
To think that somehow Quebec would do better outside of Canadian confederation is a soverigntists fantasy!

these are the sorts of things you say with either your 9th beer in your upraised hand or before a red-faced crowd.

i'll talk about this, but not at this level.

[Boris2k7]

Oh lord, where's ma popcorn?

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Correction: they want everything done their way INSIDE Quebec. They don't care how you want to live or do things in Head-Smashed-In-Buffalo-Jump or wherever else...

What I have done here is a huge simplification of a highly complex issue, but it nonetheless does sum it up fairly well.

While I can agree with you and can definitely see where you are coming from, you also need to put yourself on the other side of the looking glass so to speak. It makes no sense to people out West where French is an extreme minority to have the language on road signs, cereal boxes, government offices, etc. Especially when languages such as Cantonese, Hindi, Punjabi, etc are more prevalent.

However, I am in agreement with most Quebecers in the belief that learning another language is not a hindrance at all. Learning French has proven rather useful to me in my life.

Ultimately, NO ONE should get a constitutional veto but all provinces should be given more control over their own affairs. Essentially, turn Canada into a more federalized version of the EU. The Federal Government would be responsible for foreign relations, the military, economic integration and significant infrastructure such as HSR, maintaining highways, etc. and a few other areas. This way, all the provinces are left mostly to themselves which with Canada's alarmingly high level of regionalism, would help placate people across the country.

[jigglysquishy]

As long as I can freely move between provinces and equalization payments stay I'm fine.

[MolsonExport]

here we go round the mulberry bush....

no point in arguing with crazy uncles. Which seem to be legion of late on the SSP Canada forum.

[kool maudit]

quebec never wanted the west to have french. trudeau did that in an attempt to prove that quebec didn't have to separate.

in many cases, french quebecers are about as fond of trudeau as westerners.

[someone123]

Though it should also be pointed out that the cost of putting French on cereal boxes is pretty much zero and at any rate happens mostly because the cereal is sold throughout the country, including in Quebec. It's a silly thing to complain about and the rest of the list isn't much better.