Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexYVR
I'd like to start by saying that I'm not necessarily for the removal of the viaducts. BCPhil, you've got some very good points to make, but I do take umbridge with one and feel that you miss another: civic betterment and the 'opinion-as-fact' fallacy. To approach the 2nd point first:
The 'downtown elite': Because people make different choices in lifestyles does not make them 'elite'. I don't live downtown (though close), but wouldn't mind and am the target demographic for it. I'm 23, I rent, I'm educated but not overly so, I can't afford a car, and it's going to be a long time before I own. I have no problem with this because it allows me to live closer to the city and to the centre of what goes on in my life. I could just as easily argue that you - living out in the suburbs, wanting to be/being landed gentry, owning a vehicle - are much more 'elite' than myself.
When we're at the point where 88,000 people call downtown home - 1 in 6 Vancouverites - I don't think you can call them 'elite' any longer. This isn't a white collar vs. blue collar issue. Many downtowners rent to afford to live there, work double jobs, or live in sunrooms. Simply because their choices are not the same as yours does not make them think they're better, or 'elite'. I wish people could just accept lifestyle as lifestyle and not try and place it in a hierarchy.
The same goes for condos! It's not 'people' that like yards; it's you that likes yards. You are in a category with a large subset of people, yes, but please don't presume to tell me that I like yards or, worse, that I don't believe a condo is property. At 23, I'm in the perfect demographic to live in the city and in downtown. I firmly believe that density is needed and that, to retain a sense of nature, the city needs to invest heavily in shared, public spaces - which it has done. I don't need a yard if the nearest park is a block away and if I have kms and kms of seawall running around my entire city, and this includes when I have children. Just like I don't presume to tell you that you don't want to live in Burquitlam and have a yard and a white picket fence, please don't tell me that I do. The densified lifestyle works very well for many, many people. Condos are as big of sources of investment, equity, and security as houses. You saying that I aspire to own a 'box in the sky' is as ridiculous as me chiding you for not owning the entire block your house sits upon.
To the topic of the viaducts: I hope, eventually, they come down. Eventually. The city will need to invest much more in mass transit before this happens. This isn't to shut people out, or because I believe that downtown is for downtowners; it's because we all have a civic duty to make the occasional harder decision to ensure that the future is an improvement on the present. It’s a simple (if generalized) fact that transit reduces emissions over single occupancy vehicles. It is a simple fact that having each house separated by ½ an acre leads to longer driving distances (more emissions from cars), longer roads (more maintenance needed), increased utility distances (more pipes, wires, maintainance, etc), and so on and so forth. By encouraging people to reduce their automobile travel while simultaneously providing other options for comfortable transit, we will begin to move in that direction. Is it high speed rail into downtown instead of the viaducts? Is it increased bus service or more skytrain lines? That’s going to take years to figure out. It IS true, however, that with the removal of the viaducts, SOV travel will become more time consuming in Vancouver. The cost/benefit equation will shift and it will make more sense for more people to take transit, or to work nearer their homes. I think we can all agree that this is a good thing.
I would never call for the removal of all SOVs – at least not in the next 100 years. People deserve choice. Heavy trucks will always need a way in to the city. There are times when a car is necessary and useful and the right tool for the job, no doubt about it. Some jobs, such as construction and landscaping, will never be transit-appropriate. That doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t have to pay for the privilege of an automobile. BCPhil, just like in your example about transit users that should be happy to pay tax for their car-owning coworkers, those SOV occupants should realize that people who take transit are not putting strain on the roadways every year; they’re not using up excess capacity; and they are reducing smog and emissions in the Lower Mainland, all very real benefits that SOV users can enjoy. I guess what I’m saying (always) is that there’s two sides to the debate.
And finally, for the future:
I would be interested in exploring the possibility of turning the viaducts into a ‘commercial only’ zone – trucking and heavy commercial users being allowed on while residential/commuter/visitor traffic would be shuttled along pacific or through Chinatown. This would preserve the ingress and egress of business to the city which so worries some people on this board while encouraging carpooling and transit options for those who have them available.
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You are right. People downtown aren't the cream of the crop, but many of them like to think they are.
I think you might have taken some of what I said out of context of the debate in which it was in. When I referred to "people" liking yards, it was in direct response to why people in America fled the cities for suburban living. In this scenario, people is referring to the majority who left downtown cores. I'm in not saying that all people think like that, just that enough people think like that to have made it happen.
I have no problems with condo living. If people feel like they want to live in a condo, and I have before, then that is perfectly fine. It's their choice. And if you read any of my other posts, especially on this issue, my main argument is free society is about individuals having choice.
I don't think there is anything wrong with density, or living close to work... if that is what you
want to do. When I'm single, I love it. I like living in a condo close to work. But if I had a family, with kids, there is no way I would subject them to condo/urban living. But that is my opinion. I'm 100% for the choice, if people want to raise their kids downtown, that's fine by me. I'm not going to go to any rallies to keep them from building schools downtown.
When I refer to people downtown as elite, I'm refering to their self entitlement. Many people downtown, as evident by some posts here, feel they are right, and others are wrong for their choices. They want to destroy choice. That makes them elitist, the fact that they feel they are. It's the fact they feel they've made the correct choice in life, and those, living in the suburbs, have made the wrong choice, and by making this wrong choice are somehow harming society and are a drain on it and should be punished.
How should they be punished? By making their lives overly expensive. By making it hard for them to live with their choices. That's not what I'm for. There already is an associated cost with the choices people make. Living in the suburbs already comes with a commute, by car or transit. Why are we trying to make that commute harder, instead of easier?
Read some of the posts here by some people wanting the viaducts to come down. They talk about the evils of automobiles, the encroachment on nature, the social ills of commuting. They talk about removing the viaducts as a form of manipulation, a manipulation of choice. That kind of thinking is attacking free choice.
I talk about choice. About laissez-faire. We are (or at least try) to be a populist society, not elitist, not pluralist.
If many people benefit from current existence of a piece of infrastructure (like the viaducts), why is it correct to remove them so a smaller subset of people can profit or feel good about themselves?
This isn't a new piece of infrastructure where we have to debate the cost and benefits of building it. It exists. The benefits are tangible and realized by people using it. To remove them is taking away from people, and for what? To give to people who think they right and people using them are wrong.
But I guess you have a point. I could have been using a different term to avoid some confusion. While there are a lot of elite in downtown, and a lot of people like to pretend they are elite, I guess the actual term I should have been using was a
snob. I guess someone with a worldview in which their intellect and way of living is superior to those in the suburbs is a snob. I'll get it right next time.