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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2016, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Cyro View Post
Your making the assumtion it's the younger generation making all the noise about change. Will you silence the old timers as well who want it ? Maybe a poll is needed as well..
He claims he remembers trolleys derailing or something in the '50s, making him something like a hundred years old. That would make us all younger generations.

And I'll admit, I'm sure trolleys and red river carts would really snarl up traffic. Good thing we're only talking about pedestrians.
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2016, 5:04 AM
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Portage & Main

Since many on this forum would be well travelled, I will pose a question. Have you ever seen another city replicate what we did at Portage & Main. From my observation this has never been done anywhere in the world. My contention is the barriers were a horrible mistake 40 years ago; and we need to fix this mistake while we have an opportunity.

For me the traffic concern is a complete non-issue. This isn't São Paulo, New Delhi, New York or London; places that actually have traffic. I would like the plans to include shrinking the lanes down to six and extending a plaza out from the Richardson corner.

There is so much potential with that corner. We may even be able to fill a 30 year old parking lot, that otherwise might never be filled. Great cities are vibrant. They are about people on the streets; they aren't about barriers and walls.
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  #23  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2016, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW View Post
Since many on this forum would be well travelled, I will pose a question. Have you ever seen another city replicate what we did at Portage & Main. From my observation this has never been done anywhere in the world.
What other city has a single intersection that is as central to it, as unavoidable for a lot of traffic, as subject to severe weather conditions, and as huge as Portage & Main?

Winnipeg also doesn't have miles of freeways that people can't walk across, like most other cities do ... to some extent, Portage and Main streets perform the role that crosstown freeways would have performed in Winnipeg had they been built as planned. It's not surprising that, to maintain the tremendous advantage of having no freeways in the city, some concessions to enabling smooth traffic flow need to be made. Maybe we can do without this one ... I don't know ... but I don't see it as a major civic priority given the cost involved and the unlikelihood that the landowners would agree to it.
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  #24  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2016, 6:21 PM
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You can easily avoid portage and main.
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  #25  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2016, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
What other city has a single intersection that is as central to it, as unavoidable for a lot of traffic, as subject to severe weather conditions, and as huge as Portage & Main?

Winnipeg also doesn't have miles of freeways that people can't walk across, like most other cities do ... to some extent, Portage and Main streets perform the role that crosstown freeways would have performed in Winnipeg had they been built as planned. It's not surprising that, to maintain the tremendous advantage of having no freeways in the city, some concessions to enabling smooth traffic flow need to be made. Maybe we can do without this one ... I don't know ... but I don't see it as a major civic priority given the cost involved and the unlikelihood that the landowners would agree to it.
How does this enable traffic when this same traffic stops at lights, complete with pedestrians one block in any direction from this intersection. Not to mention you can only turn right at portage and main.

This intersection being open to pedestrians has no bearing on anything. The same volume of traffic that forms on portage and main in all directions leading to and from the intersection already has to contend with pedestrians so that whole argument about traffic flow is bunk imho.

Last edited by drew; Feb 13, 2016 at 9:02 PM.
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  #26  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2016, 11:07 PM
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I wish P&M was transformed decades ago into something similar to Monument Circle in Indianapolis. At this point, I will accept the removal of the nasty barricades, and potentially seeing new storefronts, etc opening up around it.
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  #27  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2016, 5:39 AM
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Originally Posted by drew View Post
How does this enable traffic when this same traffic stops at lights, complete with pedestrians one block in any direction from this intersection. Not to mention you can only turn right at portage and main.

This intersection being open to pedestrians has no bearing on anything. The same volume of traffic that forms on portage and main in all directions leading to and from the intersection already has to contend with pedestrians so that whole argument about traffic flow is bunk imho.
Exactly. The way people talk, you'd think we were talking about tearing down the Gardiner or something
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  #28  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2016, 7:04 AM
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Won't somebody please think of the children!?
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  #29  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2016, 3:13 PM
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  #30  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2016, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Urban recluse View Post
I wish P&M was transformed decades ago into something similar to Monument Circle in Indianapolis. At this point, I will accept the removal of the nasty barricades, and potentially seeing new storefronts, etc opening up around it.
Store fronts ? Where will they go though.
That mess that was supposed to have a tower and hotel ?
Carve up the Richardson ?
Carve up the BMO
Carve up the TD tower?
Maybe they can install hot dog carts in the gravel parking lot.

Let's all face facts. This isn't the P&M of 1970.

I know of it opens though I am going to run there and awe at the majesty of the three behemoth towers the occupy the three corners. It will be an amazing day. Then I am going to play frogger all day long trying to get the right angle for my shots. I'll stop for lunch at the hot dog cart at the TD plaza. Then I'll walk over to the BMO building to look at the only pleasing building there.

Point is it's going to take a hell of a lot of money and a hell of a lot of time to get back 1/10 of what it was in 1970. Seeing that we cannot fill a gravel parking lot in 30 plus years. We may all be dead by the time this investment turns around.
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  #31  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2016, 9:36 PM
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Well, they would be close, in the vicinity.
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  #32  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 6:40 PM
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At one time in my life that this intersection was closed, I was advocating that a central pod be installed in the center of the intersection using a mono base plate and column with the pod being 40 to 50 feet in diameter with bridges built to join the four corners of the intersection. Each (of 4 )bridge end would be a tower structure with stairways around the outside and a elevator in the middle. Ventilating the structure would be by self-regulating windows the open and close based on weather conditions. Commercial kiosks rents would offset cost-to-build expense.

After seeing the Provencher Bridge Promenade erected and functioning, I sure a similar design could be used from the same center pod structure and each end bridge pod; perhaps with a umbrella type cladding over the top of the main pod for summer and a large Christmas Tree of lights of approximately 100 feet tall illuminating the intersection in the Winter season. Hell, pull out a napkin, I'll draw you one up over lunch. Get the Back Street Boys to play during lunch....!, when its built.

The other idea , was to construct a ramp starting from Fort St. and building a fly-over at the center blvd. to take bus traffic, up and North to Main St. or from McDermot "Station" center blvd. to a similar parallel fly-over to west bound Portage with a center blvd. "station" between Fort and Garry. Both Stations would be linked to P&M concourse. South bound Transit traffic would still right turn at Main and proceed South or return back West bound via Graham. Curb traffic would be maintained on Main or Portage with no up set to flow. Present bus traffic on Portage crosses 2 lanes of East bound in order to get around the corner to go North bound, which is a waste and slow as hell. Center transit unloading would be similar to the way the old street cars dropped passenger off. Which in my opinion, should have been maintained, and also leads us to the old Juba Plan of a mono-rail down the center blvds, of Portage and Main_ anyone want to have a go at that???

But, then again, maybe I'm just 'a hundred year old kid' that should just go and play with his cars and trucks in the dirt pile.....! Your turn children.....CLICK!
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  #33  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 6:47 PM
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Interesting ideas. If it will not be opened, some project must be developed to allow for pedestrians to be able to cross, such as an elevated platform with stairs at each corner, while traffic would flow as it currently does. Perhaps in the middle of this platform, a grand fountain with stunning landscaping around it could be built? Either way, the current blight at this intersection must be changed.
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
What other city has a single intersection that is as central to it, as unavoidable for a lot of traffic, as subject to severe weather conditions, and as huge as Portage & Main?

Winnipeg also doesn't have miles of freeways that people can't walk across, like most other cities do ... to some extent, Portage and Main streets perform the role that crosstown freeways would have performed in Winnipeg had they been built as planned. It's not surprising that, to maintain the tremendous advantage of having no freeways in the city, some concessions to enabling smooth traffic flow need to be made. Maybe we can do without this one ... I don't know ... but I don't see it as a major civic priority given the cost involved and the unlikelihood that the landowners would agree to it.
C'mon man. You live in a city.

You can't compare P&M with a freeway. It is the centre of downtown Winnipeg. It's role needs to be more than funnelling cars through the downtown. It needs to connect downtown at the pedestrian level.

Only one of the seven land owners is opposed. The others support opening it. The wealthiest one is already preparing plans for what their side will look like.

I don't get this cost thing. We build $150 million underpasses. Spending $10 mil on our central intersection is nothing. Cost can not be part of the discussion when it is so minuscule.
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  #35  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 6:54 PM
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A bridge or skywalk across is no different than a tunnel.
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  #36  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 6:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluenote View Post
Store fronts ? Where will they go though.
That mess that was supposed to have a tower and hotel ?
Carve up the Richardson ?
Carve up the BMO
Carve up the TD tower?
Maybe they can install hot dog carts in the gravel parking lot.

Let's all face facts. This isn't the P&M of 1970.

I know of it opens though I am going to run there and awe at the majesty of the three behemoth towers the occupy the three corners. It will be an amazing day. Then I am going to play frogger all day long trying to get the right angle for my shots. I'll stop for lunch at the hot dog cart at the TD plaza. Then I'll walk over to the BMO building to look at the only pleasing building there.

Point is it's going to take a hell of a lot of money and a hell of a lot of time to get back 1/10 of what it was in 1970. Seeing that we cannot fill a gravel parking lot in 30 plus years. We may all be dead by the time this investment turns around.
You are right. It's not the portage and main of the 1970's. How could it be when it has been void of people for two generations. If we don't open it we are stuck with the effects for another two. Why would we want that. Yes it will take time to heal the scar but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. It's ludicrous to me that anyone could believe closing our central intersection until 2059 is a good thing. It's completely ridiculous.

My hope is the storefronts go on the new buildings that fill all the surface parking lots currently cut off from downtown by the great divide. How about on south Main Street. How about the buildings behind the old bank? It's not just about the three towers. Although they will also benefit from opening their ground floors. Richardson used to have a bank at ground level that moved into the basement. That space could be returned to proper use. TD could put doors on the front and actually use its vacant ground floor space that is currently hidden away but would become prime space. Hopefully their parking lot will become part of that storefront network. Even trizek could be reconfigured to address the corner. In time it likely would.

And who's to say that over the next four decades something wouldn't get built in the Richardson plaza that had public function. It surely won't happen without people.

But again. It's not about the corner only. It's about the effect it has on surrounding blocks.

Plus. It's just friggin stupid to close intersections for cars. It just is.

Last edited by trueviking; Feb 15, 2016 at 7:14 PM.
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 7:05 PM
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C'mon man. You live in a city.

You can't compare P&M with a freeway. It is the centre of downtown Winnipeg. It's role needs to be more than funnelling cars through the downtown. It needs to connect downtown at the pedestrian level.
Okay ... I will withhold my veto over the reopening if you want it so badly.
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  #38  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 7:07 PM
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I would be interested in it opening up just to see what the effects would be...would they be positive? or were they better closed off? It would be interesting to see. Myself, I like seeing pedestrian activity and you can see it office hours if you go underground but above ground its a bit dead.

I'm sure the tunnels etc... will still be used in the winter time, so I don't think taking down the barriers would destroy the businesses there, especially since most people who are crossing P&M aren't doing so with the intent to stop by a business...most people just want to cross as quickly as possible.

But I have to agree with those who are proponents, that it would add a lot more liveliness to the area and perhaps "connect" downtown more for pedestrians than it currently does. First time I ever walked downtown Winnipeg I found it very confusing to cross that intersection haha. Its unlike any other city.

Still, it all depends on whether the Artis folks approve it or not, correct? Its a moot point otherwise
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  #39  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 7:11 PM
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Okay ... I will withhold my veto over the reopening if you want it so badly.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
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  #40  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 7:27 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
A bridge or skywalk across is no different than a tunnel.
At the very least, if P&M does not open anew to pedestrians, a plan B should be considered. Something must be done to beautify the intersection, while at least allowing pedestrians a way to quickly cross without having to go underground, as well as to congregate here.
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