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  #21  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2010, 5:54 PM
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^ it would be great to have a "tropical area" for Canada. But think about it, how much more expensive would the resorts on this Island be compared to places like Cuba, the DR, Mexico?

If T&C are Canadian, the tax rates transfer, minimum wages, benefits, etc.

Hawaii is great, but it is expensive as hell. I've gone to Cuba 4 times, mostly because it is cheap, and I don't plan on going to Hawaii anytime soon just based on the costs involved.

If T&C is crazy expensive in comparison to other Caribbean resort destinations, then I doubt it would actually draw a great deal of Canadian tourists.
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  #22  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2010, 6:26 PM
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Damn, this issue again?

I'd love for them to join us, but knowing the issues at hand, it may take a while, or probably won't happen at all.

Although, if they do end up joining, will they continue to use their local government services, particularly their police or militia? If so, will they be transferred or converted to the RCMP or CF respectively?
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  #23  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2010, 7:08 PM
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Originally Posted by drew View Post
^ it would be great to have a "tropical area" for Canada. But think about it, how much more expensive would the resorts on this Island be compared to places like Cuba, the DR, Mexico?

If T&C are Canadian, the tax rates transfer, minimum wages, benefits, etc.

Hawaii is great, but it is expensive as hell. I've gone to Cuba 4 times, mostly because it is cheap, and I don't plan on going to Hawaii anytime soon just based on the costs involved.

If T&C is crazy expensive in comparison to other Caribbean resort destinations, then I doubt it would actually draw a great deal of Canadian tourists.
Not much more expensive than they are now, since the Turks and Caicos deal in US Dollars and are open to the Loonie.

Considering Canadians already flock there every winter, I wouldn't worry too much about expenses when everything is traded in US dollars. What I'm saying is that the price you'd pay no is not likely to change.

On top of that, the added economic bonuses of having a Caribbean territory/part of Nova Scotia would be of immeasurable benefit to Canada.

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Originally Posted by The Jabroni View Post
Damn, this issue again?

I'd love for them to join us, but knowing the issues at hand, it may take a while, or probably won't happen at all.

Although, if they do end up joining, will they continue to use their local government services, particularly their police or militia? If so, will they be transferred or converted to the RCMP or CF respectively?
Yes, this issue again. Thanks again for proving that this issue has come up several times before in Canada as well as the Turks and Caicos. Let's bite the bullet already.

As for local government services, that would have to be worked out between our government and theirs. The purpose of this petition is to bring it to the attention of the federal government and get both sides to the negotiating table.
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  #24  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2010, 7:35 PM
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I think it'd be Canada's Puerto Rico instead of Canada's Hawaii.
That being said it would be awesome to have an offshore colony/territory..
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  #25  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2010, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Architect View Post
I think it'd be Canada's Puerto Rico instead of Canada's Hawaii.
You're right of course. An even better comparison would be Canada's Virgin Islands.

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Originally Posted by The_Architect View Post
That being said it would be awesome to have an offshore colony/territory..
It wouldn't be a "colony" as far as I'm concerned. I envisage a full fledged federal territory like the NWT, Yukon or Nunavut. As such, it would be an integral part of Canada - not a colony.

This would take care of those touchy-feely types worried about "neo-colonialism".

And yes, the Turks would be patrolled by the RCMP and protected by the Canadian Forces. I can see a nice little naval base down there with a couple of patrol boats now!
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  #26  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2010, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
It wouldn't be a "colony" as far as I'm concerned. I envisage a full fledged federal territory like the NWT, Yukon or Nunavut. As such, it would be an integral part of Canada - not a colony.

This would take care of those touchy-feely types worried about "neo-colonialism".
Colony was just a bad choice of words on my part. I just meant territory, like Guam, Virgin Islands, and Puerto Rico are to the states.
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  #27  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2010, 9:42 PM
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I cannot imagine it becoming a big tourist destination because it would just be too expensive. There's no way you could pay employees at resorts a minimum wage that is compareable to other minimum wages throughout the country and still compete pricewise with other resorts in the Caribbean. It could function as a place where Canadians can own a second home and travel back and forth but how many people can afford that?

As well the only way Turks and Caicos could join Canada is if they become a territory.
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  #28  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2010, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by PoscStudent View Post
I cannot imagine it becoming a big tourist destination because it would just be too expensive. There's no way you could pay employees at resorts a minimum wage that is compareable to other minimum wages throughout the country and still compete pricewise with other resorts in the Caribbean. It could function as a place where Canadians can own a second home and travel back and forth but how many people can afford that?
Um, you DO know that they use US dollars down there, is already seen as expensive, but still thrives off tourism, right?

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As well the only way Turks and Caicos could join Canada is if they become a territory.
OR

By accepting Nova Scotia's offer to become part of the province.
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  #29  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 12:38 AM
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Sorry to be Mr. Cynical here, but I don't understand this issue. Why are we even thinking about getting T&C? do THEY want to join? why? I hope there's more to than this, because trying to get our gov't to attract a country solely to get cheap/convenient resorts seems morally wrong to me, not to mention disrespectful of the people that live there.
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  #30  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 1:07 AM
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Originally Posted by White Pine View Post
Sorry to be Mr. Cynical here, but I don't understand this issue. Why are we even thinking about getting T&C? do THEY want to join? why? I hope there's more to than this, because trying to get our gov't to attract a country solely to get cheap/convenient resorts seems morally wrong to me, not to mention disrespectful of the people that live there.
They have wanted to join us for decades. They have 3 times already asked to be a part of Canada. So it wouldn't be disrespectful to T&C, or morally wrong, as we wouldn't be taking advantage of them.
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  #31  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 1:13 AM
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There would probably be a referendum in T&C as to whether or not they want to join Canada or Nova Scotia, so if they don't want it, they can make that decision themselves.
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  #32  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 1:58 AM
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could they all claim welfare and canadian benefits?
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  #33  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 2:25 AM
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From wikipedia,

"A great number of tourists who visit the Turks and Caicos Islands are Canadian. Owing to this, the islands' status as a British colony, and historic trade links, some politicians in Canada and the Turks and Caicos have suggested some form of union between Canada and the British territory.

In 1917, the Prime Minister of Canada, Robert Borden first suggested that Canada annex the Turks and Caicos Islands. In 1974, Canadian New Democratic Party Member of Parliament Max Saltsman introduced a failed attempt at consolidating the islands.

The idea was brought up again in 1986 by Progressive Conservative MP Dan McKenzie, but it was rejected by his party's caucus committee on external affairs in 1987. The committee, chaired by MP David Daubney, looked at immigration, banking, health care and tourism issues in making its decision.

For the islands to join Canada as a full province would require an amendment to the Canadian constitution ratified by seven provincial legislatures representing at least half of the national population. Because such a step could entice provinces to demand other changes to the constitution in exchange for such support, this is seen to be a politically unfeasible option. Note that less sweeping changes to the Constitution do not require unanimous consent. The last new province, Newfoundland, was brought into the country in 1949 by an act of the British Parliament. Joining as a territory would be easier, as territories can be created by an act of Parliament. In addition, a population of about 30,000 people is considered insufficient for provincial status - the smallest province, Prince Edward Island, has about 130,000 people. However, this attitude might change should the territories of Yukon, the Northwest Territories or Nunavut, with about 30,000 people each, ever become provinces.

In 2004, Conservative MP Peter Goldring visited Turks and Caicos to explore the possibility once more. He drafted a motion asking the Canadian Government to look into the issue, but his party declined, citing immigration, tourism, and economic issues. However, the Canadian government does not dismiss the possibility of a future union.

The province of Nova Scotia voted to invite Turks and Caicos to join the province in 2004, should the islands ever become part of Canada. This would bypass the problems with admitting Turks and Caicos as a separate province.

On March 2, 2009, the Ottawa Citizen ran an article on its online site reporting the interest of the Canadian government to open a deep-water port in the Caribbean that would open up "a new market for Canadian goods ... in the Caribbean and nearby Central and South America". "Suppose the port, unaffordable for Caribbean countries, boosted their standard of living and bolstered hemispheric security. Suppose the port doubled as a Canadian military operations base for countries wanting help to patrol their waters and to interdict the Caribbean's robust trade in smuggled arms, drugs and people."

In the 1990s support for integration into Canada as an "11th province" was at 90%, while in 2003 support for integration stood at around 60% in the Turks and Caicos Islands. Goldring, a Conservative MP from Edmonton, has championed the cause of integrating the Turks and Caicos Islands as a Canadian territory for security benefits as well as increasing Canada's influence in Central and Southern America in regards to anti-terrorism, trade and combating encroaching Chinese influence in several small Caribbean islands, such as St. Lucia.
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  #34  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 2:36 AM
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I don't know about it joining Nova Scotia.. it seems just so far away and so different to be considered the same province. People from Labrador complain about being so far away and so different from Newfoundland, and look at the distance and difference between NS and T&C.
It'd be like Hawaii and Oregon being part of the same state..
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  #35  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 3:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix View Post
Um, you DO know that they use US dollars down there, is already seen as expensive, but still thrives off tourism, right?



OR

By accepting Nova Scotia's offer to become part of the province.
Just because they use US money doesn't mean they're not being paid 30 cents an hour. I don't no what they are being paid but down there I doubt people are making $8.00 an hour to work in a hotel.

As for joining Nova Scotia, lets be serious Nova Scotia has enough problems taking care of the 940,000 people they have now without taking on an island thousands of miles away that will most likely need substantial investments.
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  #36  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 4:22 AM
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Just because they use US money doesn't mean they're not being paid 30 cents an hour. I don't no what they are being paid but down there I doubt people are making $8.00 an hour to work in a hotel.
Taken from Wikipedia:

Demographics

Eight of the thirty islands in the territory are inhabited, with a total population in mid-2006 of about 32,000. One-third of the population is under 15 years old, and only 4% are 65 or older. In 2000 the population was growing at a rate of 3.55% per year, with 14.46 migrants per 1,000 population and 25.65 births per 1,000 population, offset by 4.57 deaths per 1,000 population. The infant mortality rate was 18.66 deaths per 1,000 live births and the life expectancy at birth was 73.28 years (71.15 years for males, 75.51 years for females). The total fertility rate was 3.25 children born per woman. The annual population growth rate is 2.82%.

The CIA World Factbook describes the islander's ethnicity as "90% Black", with the remainder Mixed, European or North American ancestry.

The people of the Turks and Caicos Islands are called "Turks and Caicos Islanders".

Education system

Education is free and mandatory for children aged five to sixteen. Primary education lasts for six years and secondary education lasts for five years. In the 1990s, the island nation launched the Primary In-Service Teacher Education Project (PINSTEP) in an effort to increase the skills of its primary school teachers, nearly one-quarter of whom were unqualified. Turks and Caicos also worked to refurbish its primary schools, reduce textbook costs, and increase equipment and supplies given to schools. For example, in September 1993, each primary school was given enough books to allow teachers to establish in-class libraries.[citation needed] In 2001, the student–teacher ratio at the primary level was roughly 15:1.[citation needed] The Turks and Caicos Islands Community College offers higher education to students who have successfully completed their secondary education. The community college also oversees an adult literacy program. The Ministry of Health, Education, Youth, Sports, and Women's Affairs oversees education in Turks and Caicos.
[edit] Colleges

* Turks and Caicos Islands Community College with campuses on both Grand Turk Island and Providenciales
* St. Clements University
* Burkes University
* Boston University's: The School for Field Studies, South Caicos
* Turks and Caicos Institute of Professional Studies, Providenciales
* Turks and Caicos Islands Business College, Grand Turk Island
* Weston University School of Medicine, Gracebay and Long Bay Campus, Providenciales

[edit] Economy

In 2006, GDP contributions were as follows:[39] Hotels & Restaurants 23.27%, Financial Services 29.64%, Construction 48.71%, Wholesale & Retail Trade 20.89% and Health & Social Work 10.83%.[clarification needed] Most capital goods and food for domestic consumption are imported.

In 2006, major sources of government revenue included Import Duties (36.51%), Stamp Duties from Property Transactions (19.79%), Work Permits and Residency Fees (8.93%) and Accommodation Tax (8.84%). The territory's gross domestic product as of late 2006 is approximately US$722 million (per capita $17,112), with an inflation rate of 3.7%.[39]

The labour force totalled 12000 workers in 2006. The labour force distribution is as follows:
Skill level Percentage
Unskilled/Manual 53%
Semi-skilled 12%
Skilled 20%
Professional 15%

The unemployment rate in 2007 was 5.4%. In 2006–2007, the territory took in revenues of $202.5 million against expenditures of $199.5 million. In 1995, the island received economic aid worth $5.7 million. The territory's currency is the United States dollar, with a few government fines (such as airport infractions) being payable in pounds sterling. Most commemorative coin issues are denominated in crowns.

The primary agricultural products include limited amounts of maize, beans, cassava (tapioca) and citrus fruits. Fish and conch are the only significant export, with some $169.2 million of lobster, dried and fresh conch, and conch shells exported in 2000, primarily to the United States and the United Kingdom. In recent years, however, the catch has been declining. The territory used to be an important trans-shipment point for South American narcotics destined for the United States, but due to the ongoing pressure of a combined American, Bahamian and Turks and Caicos effort this trade has been greatly reduced.

The islands import food and beverages, tobacco, clothing, manufacture and construction materials, primarily from the United States and the United Kingdom. Imports totalled $581 million in 2007.

The islands produce and consume about 5 GWh of electricity, per year, all of which comes from fossil fuels.

Quote:
As for joining Nova Scotia, lets be serious Nova Scotia has enough problems taking care of the 940,000 people they have now without taking on an island thousands of miles away that will most likely need substantial investments.
The whole point of the idea that they could become a part of Nova Scotia is to bypass tricky constitutional issues, which would be very appealing to a government serious enough to try.
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  #37  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 4:34 AM
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I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of admitting T&C to the Canadian federation, but I think there is an issue no one has mentioned yet.

Due to the fact that our country's only land border adjoins another developed country I don't think we, as Canadians, are accustomed to dealing with economic, political and social instability. Just one boat full of refugees from Sri Lanka earlier this year had talk-radio hosts across the country frothing at the mouth. Can you imagine what might happen if the Canadian border and our due process guarantees were just 140KM from Haiti? Or 235KM from Cuba?

If T&C were admitted, I would be nervous that Canada might go the way of the U.S., where thousands (or millions?) of illegals would enter the country and given tacit permission to stay due to their economic benefits but not given any kind of legal protection.
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  #38  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 4:40 AM
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To be honest I don't understand the focus on "joining" Canada. If they really want to boost tourism and commerce with Canada, what's stopping them (and us) from simply signing a bilateral agreement a la European Union, to guarantee free movement of people and goods? It seems perfectly reasonable to have a set of laws and regulations allowing Canadians to visit, set up residence and be employed in the T&C, and vice-versa for them to be able to come here with no restrictions. All without either country "joining" the other or anybody losing sovereignty over anything.
It just seems so much simpler from a legal / constitutional perspective, not to mention it would clearly avoid any suspicion of neo-colonialism.
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  #39  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 7:28 AM
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To be honest I don't understand the focus on "joining" Canada. If they really want to boost tourism and commerce with Canada, what's stopping them (and us) from simply signing a bilateral agreement a la European Union, to guarantee free movement of people and goods? It seems perfectly reasonable to have a set of laws and regulations allowing Canadians to visit, set up residence and be employed in the T&C, and vice-versa for them to be able to come here with no restrictions. All without either country "joining" the other or anybody losing sovereignty over anything.
It just seems so much simpler from a legal / constitutional perspective, not to mention it would clearly avoid any suspicion of neo-colonialism.
Signing an agreement with the EU for free movement would open the door to a lot of drug and human trafficking. Look at how much goes on between the different countries of the EU already.. It would just be looking for trouble. That and I think it'd cause the states to be a bit more strict on movement between Canada and the US, now that any eastern European is able to move into Canada freely.

As for the worries about Cuba & Haiti, it's different between T&C and Florida. More refugees and illegal immigrants from those countries would try to get into the states because it is the "land of opportunity" and whatnot. I don't think many of them are trying to get into T&C illegally..
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  #40  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2010, 7:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tkoe View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of admitting T&C to the Canadian federation, but I think there is an issue no one has mentioned yet.

Due to the fact that our country's only land border adjoins another developed country I don't think we, as Canadians, are accustomed to dealing with economic, political and social instability. Just one boat full of refugees from Sri Lanka earlier this year had talk-radio hosts across the country frothing at the mouth. Can you imagine what might happen if the Canadian border and our due process guarantees were just 140KM from Haiti? Or 235KM from Cuba?

If T&C were admitted, I would be nervous that Canada might go the way of the U.S., where thousands (or millions?) of illegals would enter the country and given tacit permission to stay due to their economic benefits but not given any kind of legal protection.
There's only 32,000 of them. Even if the whole country packed up and moved to Canada that's a fraction of the 200,000+ yearly immigration quota.
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