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  #41  
Old Posted Today, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by shivtim View Post
This is why Atlanta will never be a world class city. I vote we tear down the Fox theater and build a parking deck. Also, parking is a b*tch at Piedmont Park and that one parking deck isn't enough. If we just put a 2,000 space parking deck on the big lawn, there would be plenty of space for everyone to drive in and park for festivals and events.
Wow people take something to extreme when it's so unnecessary. The spaces being built ARE required by LAW! They are also required by construction lenders. Your argument is pointless. The spaces will be needed and will be used by the development not by "others". That is very easy to regulate who uses them and who doesn't. Why is that so hard to grasp? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's wrong or not urban or poor planning. I serve on several transit and zoning boards and believe it or not while many Atlanta zoning regs need updating this area is not one that will likely change parking regs based on the uses in place and planned around underground. This is a heavy user government node that absolutely requires parking to function and none of the new proposed parking is for public use except for the retail.

We are a nation built on laws and rules and these laws and rules aren't pointless just because you don't agree with them. This area is already a multiuse government node that uses all available parking plus several thousand spaces at Turner Field daily. Which will need to be replaced soon since it is used by workers and the courts around underground daily. I think you need to study actual parking usage of the area before assuming none is needed. The Fox and Piedmont Park have NOTHING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMMON WITH UNDERGROUND so why the extreme jump. No one is saying anything about parking their. Base an argument off facts not just emotion if someone has a different opinion than you.
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  #42  
Old Posted Today, 2:12 AM
Street Advocate Street Advocate is offline
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Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 View Post
SA - I am not personally "attacking" you just so we are clear, but who are you referring to with your comment? If it is at me, I am fine with it. I am a big boy and thick skinned.
Not directed at you, actually!! No, I think you put up fair points and argue similarly to one of my friends that is libertarian. He's often much worse- nearly always insufferable every time and refuses to concede to scientific fact that differ from views other than his own. I imagine you'd prefer just to see comparable developments, reports from the brookings institute, and/or to familiarize with transportation demand modeling software.

Shivtim brings up a lot of valid points regarding this not really being an open issue for bid period. Seems very shady. The parking itself is exorbitant. People get up in arms in Chicago west loop when there's too much parking- we should too for atlantas downtown. Civic engagement is healthy for a decision. To be frank though- anyone that argues we need parking for people visiting/commuting to the city from Alabama need to broaden their perspective. Atlanta is a city for its residents- not others- and should start acting like it. Otherwise- like Shivtim mentioned, Atlanta will never grow into the city that it absolutely could become. Atlanta is a transient city, where people often come and go. If poor planning keeps occurring in Atlanta, I will not be surprised if younger generations look away from Atlanta once they pay off their loans or save up money- if they come here. Half miles of parking garages in midtown, parking decks in our largest park, additionally 3,500 parking spaces in the heart of downtown with only 8,000 residents, rails to trails project that allows poor adjacent developments, numerous massive strip malls and big box developments within two miles of the epicenter... the list goes on.

Atlanta needs to fix its zoning codes and planning processes ASAP.

Last edited by Street Advocate; Today at 2:33 AM.
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  #43  
Old Posted Today, 3:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Atlriser View Post
The spaces being built ARE required by LAW!
This is demonstrably false.
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  #44  
Old Posted Today, 3:12 AM
Ant131531 Ant131531 is offline
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Yeah it's not required by law, but generally banks want to see parking in order to loan developers money for construction.
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  #45  
Old Posted Today, 4:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Street Advocate View Post
Not directed at you, actually!! No, I think you put up fair points and argue similarly to one of my friends that is libertarian. He's often much worse- nearly always insufferable every time and refuses to concede to scientific fact that differ from views other than his own. I imagine you'd prefer just to see comparable developments, reports from the brookings institute, and/or to familiarize with transportation demand modeling software.

Shivtim brings up a lot of valid points regarding this not really being an open issue for bid period. Seems very shady. The parking itself is exorbitant. People get up in arms in Chicago west loop when there's too much parking- we should too for atlantas downtown. Civic engagement is healthy for a decision. To be frank though- anyone that argues we need parking for people visiting/commuting to the city from Alabama need to broaden their perspective. Atlanta is a city for its residents- not others- and should start acting like it. Otherwise- like Shivtim mentioned, Atlanta will never grow into the city that it absolutely could become. Atlanta is a transient city, where people often come and go. If poor planning keeps occurring in Atlanta, I will not be surprised if younger generations look away from Atlanta once they pay off their loans or save up money- if they come here. Half miles of parking garages in midtown, parking decks in our largest park, additionally 3,500 parking spaces in the heart of downtown with only 8,000 residents, rails to trails project that allows poor adjacent developments, numerous massive strip malls and big box developments within two miles of the epicenter... the list goes on.

Atlanta needs to fix its zoning codes and planning processes ASAP.
i can get completely behind this post. the fact that it has been law for so long is one of the causes of the problems we have with our suburban and car dependent to the extreme lifestyle these days.
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  #46  
Old Posted Today, 12:42 PM
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I think all of us just want to see what's best for Atlanta. It's OK to disagree. Some of us place more importance on new development, new residential units, and new jobs in an area that desperately needs them. Some think promoting people-centric urbanism and supporting transit is key. Of course the two things don't have to be in opposition, and there are a lot of options in-between. It's my opinion that from what we've seen in the mock-ups, and the numbers we have on planned new parking spaces, this specific project is not appropriate for the location. It's not a "this or nothing" proposition, but mayor Reed sure thinks so. I think I'd feel a lot better about this if there had actually been an RFP and meaningful neighborhood input, especially since our tax dollars (via Invest Atlanta) are being used to support this, and the city gave up ownership of Bobby Jones Golf Course as part of the deal. Just too many negatives to get on board.

Last edited by shivtim; Today at 12:58 PM.
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  #47  
Old Posted Today, 2:29 PM
Ant131531 Ant131531 is offline
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Originally Posted by shivtim View Post
I think all of us just want to see what's best for Atlanta. It's OK to disagree. Some of us place more importance on new development, new residential units, and new jobs in an area that desperately needs them. Some think promoting people-centric urbanism and supporting transit is key. Of course the two things don't have to be in opposition, and there are a lot of options in-between. It's my opinion that from what we've seen in the mock-ups, and the numbers we have on planned new parking spaces, this specific project is not appropriate for the location. It's not a "this or nothing" proposition, but mayor Reed sure thinks so. I think I'd feel a lot better about this if there had actually been an RFP and meaningful neighborhood input, especially since our tax dollars (via Invest Atlanta) are being used to support this, and the city gave up ownership of Bobby Jones Golf Course as part of the deal. Just too many negatives to get on board.
Well you live in Midtown which has no problem getting a ton of investment. People in downtown have lived decades without any sort of grocery store or investment that only seems to go in areas around COP. or related to GSU.

I'm not surprised some people are desperate for anything. Underground and the area around it has been crap forever now. Something's gotta change...people don't want to wait another 2 decades before something happens.
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  #48  
Old Posted Today, 3:55 PM
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I see what you're saying, but downtown residents do not support this. The NPU is in opposition, as are prominent downtown residents (Kyle Kessler, Darin Givens, etc). And there certainly has been a lot of development downtown recently - $2.5 billion worth in the last few years.

I have to take issue with your statement that there isn't "any sort of grocery store" in downtown:
1)There's the curb market, several seasonal produce markets (e.g., Peachtree Center Green Market), and a 24 hour CVS and new Walgreens. Not ideal, but you can certainly buy fresh produce and meats as well as packaged and frozen items in downtown.
2)Support for a grocery store has nothing to do with support for this proposal. What if a suburban-style Kroger with a giant surface parking lot was proposed for downtown? Couldn't someone be opposed to that project, but still support increased grocery options for downtown? Again, this proposal isn't the only option for the site, and it's disingenuous to imply that people who don't support this plan don't support an improved downtown with more residents and grocery options.
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  #49  
Old Posted Today, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlriser View Post
wrong! I walk for my health and by choice. My mother and father would not be able to stand the heat like myself nor should they have to when they visit the area or have to go to the many government (local, county, state and federal) offices surrounding underground. I understand your concept but its just not reality. The people in those decks come from all over metro Atlanta and even Western AL on a regular basis. Build them a system to get to the area that doesnt require a car then discuss parking problems. No offense meant but your logic doesnt match reality. This area is heavily traveled by people who drive 40 or more miles a day needing services provided by all the agencies around. Even as a citizen in close proximity I need to drive and take clients or documents that require a car occasionally and its difficult now without this further development making the parking situation completely unworkable. This area is VERY DEPENDENT ON PARKING FOR RESIDENTS ALL OVER GA. Its the center of the government for the city, county and state along with federal agencies within a 5 minute walk of underground. Parking is extremely scarce and public transit is severely lacking for these people to access government and for our government to function properly as is. Your argument doesnt hold because of the nature of this area and its importance to the entire citizenry of the state. This area is far different in function than the developing urban fabric of midtown and the intown neighborhoods. PARKING IS ESENTIAL AT THIS LOCATION AND DESPARATELY NEEDED NOW WITHOUT ANY DEVELOPMENT. We will just have to agree to disagree.

In addition, I love the Huge Kroger and despise the little Publixs all over Atlanta. I hate visiting the little stores with 2 selections and such and paying 50% more for 1/2 size jars of food. Because of the big new Kroger being able to meet my needs I travel even less then before to shopping areas on Howell Mill and on Monroe, but I cant carry frozen chicken and ice cream 1.5 miles even in December without it melting and spoiling much less March or July. The big box Kroger has cut down my car trips significantly and im happy its close by. Id love another similar store at Underground to be honest as would my neighbors all around me because we have discussed it. If I had to shop and pay the prices a Publix and the local CVS for food, my family of 3 would end up driving 10 or more miles several times a week (instead of 1 mile a week) because even with my middle class salary and living in my home for 15 years there wouldn't be enough money for everything. Sorry but thats reality! am very urban and believe in transit and all but reality trumps idealism everyday!

We will definitely have to agree to disagree. I think you make some good points but aside from your own personal preference for one store over another, I am more convinced than ever that a mega store is absolutely wrong for Underground. It would require people to drive from miles around just to sustain it thus the need for a huge amount of parking and making it more susceptible to closure.

For decades, downtown and its surrounding neighborhoods have been gutted with projects (both buildings and transportation projects) designed primarily for ease and comfort of visitors; whether they are visitors from another state or from another county in the suburbs and it has come to the detriment of livability within the neighborhood itself. It speaks volumes that as you and others have described those parking decks are so full yet Underground itself has for years been a colossal failure as a retail establishment. This cannot continue if it is to ever become the kind of place where people want to live and work.

I agree with you that what you have described is the reality. But it doesn't have to remain that way. We will get the kind of city that we plan and design for the city to be. If we keep making these same mistakes then we will keep getting the same results downtown. Some of us simply believe that we have got to start building a city and specifically downtown as Street Advocate put it for its residents.
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  #50  
Old Posted Today, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by shivtim View Post
I think all of us just want to see what's best for Atlanta. It's OK to disagree. Some of us place more importance on new development, new residential units, and new jobs in an area that desperately needs them. Some think promoting people-centric urbanism and supporting transit is key. Of course the two things don't have to be in opposition, and there are a lot of options in-between. It's my opinion that from what we've seen in the mock-ups, and the numbers we have on planned new parking spaces, this specific project is not appropriate for the location. It's not a "this or nothing" proposition, but mayor Reed sure thinks so. I think I'd feel a lot better about this if there had actually been an RFP and meaningful neighborhood input, especially since our tax dollars (via Invest Atlanta) are being used to support this, and the city gave up ownership of Bobby Jones Golf Course as part of the deal. Just too many negatives to get on board.
Well said. I can agree with this completely.
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  #51  
Old Posted Today, 4:32 PM
Ant131531 Ant131531 is offline
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Originally Posted by shivtim View Post
I see what you're saying, but downtown residents do not support this. The NPU is in opposition, as are prominent downtown residents (Kyle Kessler, Darin Givens, etc). And there certainly has been a lot of development downtown recently - $2.5 billion worth in the last few years.

I have to take issue with your statement that there isn't "any sort of grocery store" in downtown:
1)There's the curb market, several seasonal produce markets (e.g., Peachtree Center Green Market), and a 24 hour CVS and new Walgreens. Not ideal, but you can certainly buy fresh produce and meats as well as packaged and frozen items in downtown.
2)Support for a grocery store has nothing to do with support for this proposal. What if a suburban-style Kroger with a giant surface parking lot was proposed for downtown? Couldn't someone be opposed to that project, but still support increased grocery options for downtown? Again, this proposal isn't the only option for the site, and it's disingenuous to imply that people who don't support this plan don't support an improved downtown with more residents and grocery options.
No one is implying anything close to what you're saying here. Don't distort my words. You're the one who's taking everything to the extreme. I'm just saying some people might be desperate for something to get started here. Downtown below Marietta street has been a shithole for ages now.
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  #52  
Old Posted Today, 4:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ant131531 View Post
No one is implying anything close to what you're saying here. Don't distort my words. You're the one who's taking everything to the extreme. I'm just saying some people might be desperate for something to get started here. Downtown below Marietta street has been a shithole for ages now.
Sorry, not meaning to misstate any of your comments, I was speaking broadly based on what I've heard from proponents of the WRS plan. But which people are desperate for it? I haven't heard any downtown residents supporting this development. I've seen a large number of them that are vocally opposed. The Atlanta Downtown Neighborhood Association is opposed. The NPU is opposed. The South Downtown Center for Civic Innovation is opposed. The Atlanta Preservation Alliance is opposed. I just don't see how anyone can honestly say this is what downtown residents want.
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  #53  
Old Posted Today, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by smArTaLlone View Post
We will definitely have to agree to disagree. I think you make some good points but aside from your own personal preference for one store over another, I am more convinced than ever that a mega store is absolutely wrong for Underground. It would require people to drive from miles around just to sustain it thus the need for a huge amount of parking and making it more susceptible to closure.

For decades, downtown and its surrounding neighborhoods have been gutted with projects (both buildings and transportation projects) designed primarily for ease and comfort of visitors; whether they are visitors from another state or from another county in the suburbs and it has come to the detriment of livability within the neighborhood itself. It speaks volumes that as you and others have described those parking decks are so full yet Underground itself has for years been a colossal failure as a retail establishment. This cannot continue if it is to ever become the kind of place where people want to live and work.

I agree with you that what you have described is the reality. But it doesn't have to remain that way. We will get the kind of city that we plan and design for the city to be. If we keep making these same mistakes then we will keep getting the same results downtown. Some of us simply believe that we have got to start building a city and specifically downtown as Street Advocate put it for its residents.

smArTaLlone help me understand your logic:

*Can we both agree there is only 1 mega store (grocery) involved in this development?
*We can agree per WRS's site plan the grocery store is 80K sq. Per code, WRS needs to build 5 parking spaces for every 1K sq of retail
*Therefore, the grocery store requires 400 parking spaces. Or <12% of the total 3500 parking spaces in the proposed development.

So you are saying these 400 parking spaces are so egregious and anti-urban that you would like the projected terminated along with the additional 175K sq of retail, 320 hotel rooms and 1000 residential units because of 400 f'en parking spaces? Honestly, this is one of the most absurd things I have ever read here. My apologies in advance if this sounds like an attack, but this blows my mind...

I asked shivtim this question and he/she for whatever reason chose not to answer it. Related Group is building a 77K sq grocery store in Midtown. Did you not support that project as well? If you did, help me understand why it is OK for Midtown to have a "mega store", but not Downtown?
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  #54  
Old Posted Today, 6:30 PM
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One final question smArTaLlone:

Your issue with the "mega store"/grocery is it will "cause people to drive for miles to sustain it". One could postulate using your logic a new corporation/office building, residential, museum, high density retail and/or an entertainment development could also cause people to drive for miles to sustain it.

If Atlanta were to implement your plan, would all developments that require people to drive for miles to sustain them be eliminated? Where would you draw the line?
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  #55  
Old Posted Today, 6:37 PM
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For the last time, these spots are NOT required by law. Why on earth do you think Fulton County parking codes supercede Atlanta's zoning? It's simply false.
Nobody is saying there should be no parking anywhere in Atlanta, that's the strawman you're attempting to set up. The only argument I'm seeing here is that *this specific site* should not have 3,500 parking spots, as it is immediately adjacent to 4 heavy rail lines, over 90 bus routes, has bikeshare access, and is in the historic walkable core of the region.
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  #56  
Old Posted Today, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 View Post
I asked shivtim this question and he/she for whatever reason chose not to answer it. Related Group is building a 77K sq grocery store in Midtown. Did you not support that project as well? If you did, help me understand why it is OK for Midtown to have a "mega store", but not Downtown?
Irrelevant to this discussion, but no, I do not support it. I have been a long term opponent of excessive parking. You can see yourself by my comments on this forum relating to developments in transit-rich areas (such as Amli Midtown). Much of what has been built recently in Midtown is bad urbanism compared to other cities. But again, irrelevant.
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  #57  
Old Posted Today, 8:40 PM
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Originally Posted by shivtim View Post
For the last time, these spots are NOT required by law. Why on earth do you think Fulton County parking codes supercede Atlanta's zoning? It's simply false.
Nobody is saying there should be no parking anywhere in Atlanta, that's the strawman you're attempting to set up. The only argument I'm seeing here is that *this specific site* should not have 3,500 parking spots, as it is immediately adjacent to 4 heavy rail lines, over 90 bus routes, has bikeshare access, and is in the historic walkable core of the region.
Let me start with where we agree: these spots are NOT required by law. Additionally, I could get a shit about Fulton or Atlanta parking codes as well. Now follow me shivtim...

What you and a few others on here are missing is - LENDERS CARE ABOUT THE NUMBER OF PARKING SPACES. Why you ask?

This is Atlanta f'en GA - the most spread out city in America with a Downtown population of +/- 20K and a metropolitan area with 5.5 Million. Therefore if I am a lender and I am looking at funding a retail, residential, hotel or an office development, I damn sure better see a parking space - to - square foot ratio greater than most cities in the US because there is a greater than 95% chance that any development I fund there with require a renter, tenant or customer to have a car. So when I as a Lender hear a developer or a citizens harp about this area is "transit-rich" I say, "I don't give 2 craps because the renter, customer or tenant we will need to target requires a medium income greater than the local demographics." You can't rent an apartment at $2.50 sq ft or eat fillets at Mortons on $45K a year. Additionally I as the Lender would state, "Given Atlanta's limited mass transit across the metropolitan area any development in the CoA will (most likely) require said renters, customers and tenants to commute via car." https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...DRGnrfUf4EB18Q

So let's net this out:
- We both agree there is not a law that requires paring spaces
- (I) don't give a shit about parking codes - Atlanta or Fulton
- Lenders that fund projects in CoA give a shit about parking
- If we force your strategy on developers we get Nothing because developers will not get funding
MAKE SENSE?

Let me tell you shivtim what a smart person that cares about urbanism would compromise on. They would allow development in the CoA per the parking codes that exist today in Atlanta/Fulton and over time as more development and density comes to the CoA and as MARTA is built out deeper into the metropolitan area, this enlightened urbanist would then petition for a gradual decrease in parking/codes in "transit rich" areas of the city. But to say you are only are in favor of developments that mirror transit developments found in other urban cities of the country with more developed mass transit is both unproductive and will lead to economic disparity to the areas of the city that need it most. Sorry to school you, but this economics of reality.
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  #58  
Old Posted Today, 9:16 PM
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Agree to disagree. We have very different world views. Peddle your view up in Buckhead, enjoy sitting in traffic, and let downtown residents have control of their own neighborhood.
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  #59  
Old Posted Today, 9:42 PM
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Not saying it's right or wrong, but the revenue off of the paid parking (from the government buildings and even tourists) has to be substantial and might be helping finance the development...

I know I used to park in one of the existing decks several times a week at $8 a pop for meetings at City Hall and in the Fulton Courthouse, and many times the deck would be full during the day.
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