CHICAGO | St. Regis Chicago (Vista) | 1,191 FT | 101 FLOORS - Page 38

rlw777 · #**741** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 2:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilsenarch

size of the floor plates are irrelevant to heat gain when said floors are broken up into a variety of rooms.

This is not true.

pilsenarch · #**742** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 2:36 PM**

not true, how? and even if they weren't broken up into small rooms (ever noticed how warm a sunroom might be as opposed to every other room in an apartment let's say?), the difference in the overall area of the floor plates is rather minimal...

Steely Dan · #**743** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 2:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilsenarch

^^ steely, there was a close up at the presentation showing this, but you can also see it in the image you posted... at each floor there is a shadow line from the glazing directly above being angled outward at the bottom so the glazing is tilting up... it appears to be the same detail on every floor...

oh, i hadn't realized that. that for explaining it.

why would they go through the trouble to angle the glazing upward on the downward-facing frustums? that seems like making things very unnecessarily complicated.

F1 Tommy · #**744** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 2:43 PM**

This new cladding looks a little more Asian in it's execution. It also looks a lot simpler. I do not like the details on the new version as good as the older version. I think this versions details were done for economics more than for esthetics due to cost overruns. They are still attempting to make it interesting with the panel mounting. I still like the overall shape as it really stands out.

Kenmore · #**745** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 2:52 PM**

Massive improvement from the earlier leak, this looks killer

ardecila · #**746** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 2:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

oh, i hadn't realized that. that for explaining it.

why would they go through the trouble to angle the glazing upward on the downward-facing frustums? that seems like making things very unnecessarily complicated.

I doubt this. The downward-tilting frustums will probably have near vertical glass on each floor, with a slight stairstep at each floorplate to create a shadow line.

However, the upward facing frustums will likely have a planar glass facade tilting up, with an applied horizontal mullion to create the shadow line from below.

pilsenarch · #**747** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 2:55 PM**

^it appears that the glazing detail is exactly the same at the edge of each floor slab.. the budget issues would imply this as well... so the tilt of the glass is exactly the same no matter what floor your on...

joeg1985 · #**748** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 2:55 PM**

It looks like it will be a beautiful building once constructed. The color change throughout the facade is awesome. No matter how Jeanne comes up with these structures, whether novelty or innovation, I am sure glad she does. This will be an instant showpiece for our skyline.

rlw777 · #**749** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 3:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilsenarch

not true, how? and even if they weren't broken up into small rooms (ever noticed how warm a sunroom might be as opposed to every other room in an apartment let's say?), the difference in the overall area of the floor plates is rather minimal...

Breaking it up into rooms does help mitigate the problem a bit but it doesn't solve it. I have a cabin with a sunroom and yeah I can keep the door closed and the rest of the house stays cool and if the house is cold I can open the door to heat the place. It's designed to help regulate the temp in the house. On really hot days the sunroom is pretty much unbearable. So you can break up the floorplate into smaller rooms and keep the doors closed to trap the heat in one area but that's not really how people want to live.

LouisVanDerWright · #**750** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 4:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlw777

Breaking it up into rooms does help mitigate the problem a bit but it doesn't solve it. I have a cabin with a sunroom and yeah I can keep the door closed and the rest of the house stays cool and if the house is cold I can open the door to heat the place. It's designed to help regulate the temp in the house. On really hot days the sunroom is pretty much unbearable. So you can break up the floorplate into smaller rooms and keep the doors closed to trap the heat in one area but that's not really how people want to live.

Regardless up the configuration of the interior walls, Gang is correct to note that heat gain/loss is a logarithmic scale between the total area of a floor and the total exterior surface area of that floor. The larger the floorplate, the more efficient on a PSF basis that floor is. Also, these floorplates are not going to be very chopped up. The unit count is low (these will be large units) and open floor plans are undoubtedly the way they will be going. Therefore, from a "green" perspective the varying glass efficiency makes the most sense out of any justification given. I agree that the angle of the lap-board like facade system is a puzzler from the green perspective, but the smaller floors will have significantly more heat gain PSF than the larger floors.

aaron38 · #**751** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 5:09 PM**

The streetwall along Wacker is so much better, and I really like what I'm seeing for the pedestrian access from the park to the river.

Zapatan · #**752** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 5:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy

This new cladding looks a little more Asian in it's execution. It also looks a lot simpler. I do not like the details on the new version as good as the older version. I think this versions details were done for economics more than for esthetics due to cost overruns. They are still attempting to make it interesting with the panel mounting. I still like the overall shape as it really stands out.

I agree, it definitely has an Asian feel to it (It is being built by the Chinese after all), and that's probably why I like it so much.

I gotta say I'm impressed with their ability to drastically lower the cost and make it actually look better. We only lost 5 feet too (or gained 50 still not really sure?).

Either way Chicago is getting back in the high-rise game and joining the boom many other North American cities are experiencing.

pilsenarch · #**753** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 7:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Regardless up the configuration of the interior walls, Gang is correct to note that heat gain/loss is a logarithmic scale between the total area of a floor and the total exterior surface area of that floor. The larger the floorplate, the more efficient on a PSF basis that floor is. Also, these floorplates are not going to be very chopped up. The unit count is low (these will be large units) and open floor plans are undoubtedly the way they will be going. Therefore, from a "green" perspective the varying glass efficiency makes the most sense out of any justification given. I agree that the angle of the lap-board like facade system is a puzzler from the green perspective, but the smaller floors will have significantly more heat gain PSF than the larger floors.

again, the relationship of the smallest floor to the largest just isn't that big a difference...

if this building wanted to be really green, then the darkest tint would cover the entire facade...

=change in tint is decoration, nothing else... just like Aqua's balconies... which is fine...

rlw777 · #**754** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 7:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilsenarch

again, the relationship of the smallest floor to the largest just isn't that big a difference...

Unless you have some inside info you don't actually know that... No one here actually knows that. We have no idea of smallest floor plate size vs. largest or the temperature variance that will occur between the two. We do know that there will be a temperature variance though and I would say this is a valid response to that problem as window tint does help reduce heat. And hopefully... if they do it right... it turns out to be a visually pleasing solution as well.

Steely Dan · #**755** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 8:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlw777

Unless you have some inside info you don't actually know that... No one here actually knows that. We have no idea of smallest floor plate size vs. largest or the temperature variance that will occur between the two.

what? we have "no idea" of the change in floor plate size? how have you not seen the new renderings that have been released?

it's quite clear from these images that the change in floor plate size from largest to smallest due to the undulations of the stacked frustums is not very big.

LouisVanDerWright · #**756** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 8:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilsenarch

again, the relationship of the smallest floor to the largest just isn't that big a difference...

The perimeter of a 125'x125' square space is 500', the area is 15,625 SF. That means 31.5 SF for every 1' of perimeter.

The perimeter of a 150'x150' square space is 600', the area is 22,500 SF. That means 37.5 SF for every 1' of perimeter.

That's roughly 16% less surface area PSF of interior space. If we assume a linear relationship between efficiency and the ratio of interior space to perimeter, then we are talking about a very significant variation in energy efficiency simply based on floorplate size. The relationship is actually probably more favorable than simply linear because we are also talking about solar shading here which can only penetrate so far into the floor which means that, after a certain size, adding additional SF means absolutely no additional solar gains because those additional SF are shaded entirely by the floor above it.

Quote:

if this building wanted to be really green, then the darkest tint would cover the entire facade...

It's not as if all facade treatments have the same cost. Weren't you just advocating for Chicago architecture being about efficiency and economy? Unless all shades of glass cost the same amount, there is a reason for not just cladding everything one color.

rlw777 · #**757** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 9:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

what? we have "no idea" of the change in floor plate size? how have you not seen the new renderings that have been released?

it's quite clear from these images that the change in floor plate size from largest to smallest due to the undulations of the stacked frustums is not very big.

I've seen the renderings but can you tell the difference in feet between the largest floor plate and the smallest. I can't... and as LVDW points out a small variation can mean a large difference when extended over the length and width of the building. I saw on curbed a pic that showed a floor plate that's 81' x 81' assuming that's the smallest plate and the largest is only 5' wider and longer or or 86' x 86' (that's 2.5ft per side) you would have a 12.7% increase in space.

pilsenarch · #**758** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 10:11 PM**

look guys, you can try to 'justify' the glass tint gradation all you want, in the end, and I know this for a fact, it was done because it was perceived to look 'cool'...

and lou, not that it matters, but in no way is there a variance in SF any where near your example...

andydie · #**759** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 10:19 PM**

well maybe its just me but all 3 towers in the same glass colour looks a bit boring and bland. i would hope they might think about making each tower in another shade of green to give them some diversity

Ned.B · #**760** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 11:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilsenarch

look guys, you can try to 'justify' the glass tint gradation all you want, in the end, and I know this for a fact, it was done because it was perceived to look 'cool'...

and lou, not that it matters, but in no way is there a variance in SF any where near your example...

I think the gradient and the "ship lap" curtainwall system were done to make up for the loss of facade detail (balconies, vertical striation, etc) while emphasizing the sloped sides of the frustums (i.e. making up for the considerably decreased slope in the revised version). In that aspect I think it is successful. Both features should also help dilute the distorted reflections that are so prominent on all glass buildings.

I have no problem with "arbitrary" design decisions (arbitrary as in only driven by aesthetic choices) as almost every building is subject to them, and they don't necessarily make any worse of a design.