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  #301  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 2:31 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Downtown Oakville

Downtown Worchester, MA

Take a look at the Boston map, and explore the peripheral cities' cores. Then compare to Toronto.
Would never have thought to compare Oakville and Worcester.
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  #302  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 2:48 AM
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ok, so provide a better comparison!

mississauga? Oshawa?
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  #303  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 2:54 AM
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LA, same scale as previous cities. Also seems, like Toronto, to have more centralized industrial areas.

Los Angeles
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  #304  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 2:59 AM
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Oakville doesn't really compare to Worcester.

Actually I'm not sure there's any Oakville in Boston or Worcester in Toronto. They're very different metros.

Toronto suburbia, for the most part, is sprawl extending outward from the central city, not unlike Sunbelt America. Northeastern U.S. suburbia, while plenty sprawly, is more like a bunch of small towns and regional centers merging together in the postwar era.
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  #305  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 4:17 AM
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ok, so provide a better comparison!

mississauga? Oshawa?
Hamilton. They're both old industrial cities that are 40-50 miles away and not quite part of the metro.
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  #306  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 4:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Hamilton/Tacoma isn't a bad analogy.

It's hard to think of the "Hamilton" equivalent of the USA. Some say Pittsburgh because of the steel industry but Pittsburgh is in a region of its own while Hamilton is very much in the shadow of Toronto. It could also be the "Baltimore" given that Baltimore is a similar distance to DC and also overshadowed by its more prominent neighbor but Baltimore was a larger city historically and is a lot more "even" with DC than Hamilton is with Toronto.

Could also be Allentown-Bethlehem or something but that would probably be considered an insult to Hamiltonians!

mmm Milwaukee/Chicago?
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  #307  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 5:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Downtown Oakville

Downtown Worchester, MA

Take a look at the Boston map, and explore the peripheral cities' cores. Then compare to Toronto.
Oakville is not really a good comparison here, IMO. Worchester is a full fledged city and metro area of its own and is as far from Boston as Hamilton is from Toronto, so Hamilton would be the the obvious peripheral city core to compare in this scenario.
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  #308  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 6:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Hamilton. They're both old industrial cities that are 40-50 miles away and not quite part of the metro.
Hamiton is a very major Canadian city, though, almost a Fort Worth to Toronto's Dallas. Worcester is a fairly insignificant city with large city limits for a New England city, so it's basically a small urban core with typical postwar sprawl.
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  #309  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Toronto suburbia, for the most part, is sprawl extending outward from the central city, not unlike Sunbelt America. .
Mississauga = Anaheim with South Asians (or conversely Anaheim = Mississauga with Mexicans).
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  #310  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Mississauga = Anaheim with South Asians (or conversely Anaheim = Mississauga with Mexicans).
Yeah, while Toronto and LA have a very different feel, their suburban growth patterns are somewhat similar with large, fast-growing ethnoburbs with fairly dense sprawl. Boston has more patchy suburban development, with more character-laden small towns and more wooded land.
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  #311  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 6:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Yeah, while Toronto and LA have a very different feel, their suburban growth patterns are somewhat similar with large, fast-growing ethnoburbs with fairly dense sprawl. Boston has more patchy suburban development, with more character-laden small towns and more wooded land.
True, though one difference is that the suburban cities surrounding LA are much smaller in land area. Looking at a municipal map of Greater Los Angeles shows the large city of Los Angeles surrounded by small incorporated and unincorporated suburbs. The boundaries seem random, haphazard and patchy compared with a more sensible delineation in the GTA.
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  #312  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2017, 12:58 AM
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Suburban DC - which grew at a similar rate as Toronto in the postwar years - has a bit of a "Sunbelt" feel as well.
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  #313  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2017, 1:01 AM
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mmm Milwaukee/Chicago?
Or Buffalo.
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  #314  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2017, 1:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Or Buffalo.
Buffalo exists in relative isolation from the Golden Horseshoe but it will be interesting to see if that changes over the next 20 years as the Golden Horseshoe booms, grows bigger, its influence increases, and regional rail gets built out.
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  #315  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2017, 2:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Toronto suburbia, for the most part, is sprawl extending outward from the central city, not unlike Sunbelt America. Northeastern U.S. suburbia, while plenty sprawly, is more like a bunch of small towns and regional centers merging together in the postwar era.
This is kind of true of Montreal, and even Quebec City - despite the fact that these cities and their environs have been continuously settled for 400 years.

I mean, Laval, Quebec is a giant suburban municipality spanning over 100 square miles and 400,000 people. Its "downtown" is a series of malls and the overwhelming majority of its built form is relatively dense postwar sprawl not separated by woodlots. Why does a place that's as old as New England have more in common with Mesa, AZ than Quincy, MA?

The fact is that Canadian municipal governance is a very different animal than what is in the US and has been since the beginning. Canadian cities are almost completely at the whim of the provinces in which they find themselves. Even the very biggest and most powerful cities like Toronto and Montreal have been forced by their provinces to dissolve or amalgamate with other independent and incorporated cities nearby. Canadian cities can't levy their own sales taxes or even generate any new forms of revenue without getting provincial permission, and, back in the 1950s-1970s, most provinces had a very heavy hand in actual development planning, deciding how and in what form the city should develop and where transit or road corridors would go. That era of provincial command and control may not be as strong anymore, although there's been a bit of a resurgence in recent years.

The spectre of a community of 5,000 people incorporating themselves into a municipality and then mandating minimum lot sizes to keep others out is just not something that Canadian municipalities had recourse over, even if they wanted to.
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  #316  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2017, 2:59 AM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
This is kind of true of Montreal, and even Quebec City - despite the fact that these cities and their environs have been continuously settled for 400 years.

I mean, Laval, Quebec is a giant suburban municipality spanning over 100 square miles and 400,000 people. Its "downtown" is a series of malls and the overwhelming majority of its built form is relatively dense postwar sprawl not separated by woodlots. Why does a place that's as old as New England have more in common with Mesa, AZ than Quincy, MA?

The fact is that Canadian municipal governance is a very different animal than what is in the US and has been since the beginning. Canadian cities are almost completely at the whim of the provinces in which they find themselves. Even the very biggest and most powerful cities like Toronto and Montreal have been forced by their provinces to dissolve or amalgamate with other independent and incorporated cities nearby. Canadian cities can't levy their own sales taxes or even generate any new forms of revenue without getting provincial permission, and, back in the 1950s-1970s, most provinces had a very heavy hand in actual development planning, deciding how and in what form the city should develop and where transit or road corridors would go. That era of provincial command and control may not be as strong anymore, although there's been a bit of a resurgence in recent years.

The spectre of a community of 5,000 people incorporating themselves into a municipality and then mandating minimum lot sizes to keep others out is just not something that Canadian municipalities had recourse over, even if they wanted to.
Canadian cities at least here in Ontario set their own land use zoning and their own municipal plans. There is the provincial Ontario Municipal Board that can overrule a city planning department when there is inconsistencies in zoning and municipal plans or when they try to override their own zoning.

On the other hand, municipalities are subservient to the provinces regarding their existence and boundaries.
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  #317  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2017, 2:22 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Canadian cities at least here in Ontario set their own land use zoning and their own municipal plans. There is the provincial Ontario Municipal Board that can overrule a city planning department when there is inconsistencies in zoning and municipal plans or when they try to override their own zoning.

On the other hand, municipalities are subservient to the provinces regarding their existence and boundaries.

They do, but they still have to conform to overarching provincial policy, which admittedly varies by region. In the Greater Golden Horseshoe municipalities have set growth, density and intensification targets and only have some leeway as to how this is achieved. Outside this planning area municipalities still have to "be consistent" with the Provincial Policy Statement as prescribed by the Planning Act. The PPS essentially dictates exactly what needs to be in a municipalities Official Plan and limits the amount of land designated as "settlement areas" at any given time. It also has strict rules regarding employment areas.
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  #318  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2017, 1:11 AM
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They do, but they still have to conform to overarching provincial policy, which admittedly varies by region. In the Greater Golden Horseshoe municipalities have set growth, density and intensification targets and only have some leeway as to how this is achieved. Outside this planning area municipalities still have to "be consistent" with the Provincial Policy Statement as prescribed by the Planning Act. The PPS essentially dictates exactly what needs to be in a municipalities Official Plan and limits the amount of land designated as "settlement areas" at any given time. It also has strict rules regarding employment areas.
Seems like a degree of wisdom over the out of control sprawl in many places south of the border.
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  #319  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2017, 1:23 AM
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The little suburban villages in the Toronto area - Forest Hill, Long Branch, Port Credit, old Oakville and the like - were done away with in the 1960s and 1970s.
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  #320  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2017, 2:27 AM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
This is kind of true of Montreal, and even Quebec City - despite the fact that these cities and their environs have been continuously settled for 400 years.

I mean, Laval, Quebec is a giant suburban municipality spanning over 100 square miles and 400,000 people. Its "downtown" is a series of malls and the overwhelming majority of its built form is relatively dense postwar sprawl not separated by woodlots. Why does a place that's as old as New England have more in common with Mesa, AZ than Quincy, MA?
yup, this is the point I was trying to make earlier. Canadian cities are more centralized with fewer older cores surrounding the city. Development remained more centralized, for a variety of economic/political/cultural reasons.
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