Dead Malls of Canada

[stevanford1]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

the covid crisis is going to be the final nail in the coffins of many dying malls.

Recently I had to pick up something I ordered in Oakville, while I was there I decided to pop-into the dying Hopedale Mall to grab some groceries. It was awful, the actual mall portion was barred off by wooden barriers! The HopeDale Mall once we reopen is not going to make it!

[MolsonExport]

I suppose there isn't much hope for dale.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by stevanford1

The Power Centre imho, has been killed by the Covid-19 pandemic. Big Box Stores are dropping like flies, and mall stores are even worse off (see JC Penneys stock). What I want to know is what we’re going to do with these abandoned power centres and malls.

In London, a Toys’R’Us store in the power centre at Wonderland and Southdale has already closed permanently.

A decade ago I didn’t understand why London was still pushing more big box retail along Wonderland Road south of Southdale, a time when the city was barely growing and online shopping was exploding, and while other cities like Ottawa and Kingston were talking about creating more walkable shopping districts. At the time I predicted online shopping would do to that power centre what that same power centre did to nearby Westmount Mall.

While stores like Loblaws, Home Depot, and Canadian Tire will always have a place, I question how many other retailers will remain when this is over. All depends on how many people who have shifted to online shopping will stay there.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Doady

Huh? Power centres are replacing malls. The construction of power centres is the reason malls are being demolished. Did you think malls were going to be replaced by apartment buildings or something?

That very thing is actually happening on the site of a former Sears at a mall in Burnaby, BC. Two condo towers are planned for the Sears site at Metropolis at Metrotown. There are also long-term plans to replace that mall with condos with street-level retail.

Mixed-use developments with ground level retail and apartments/condos above have been replacing malls in some cities including in Metro Vancouver, but the concept is unheard of in some regions. A good example, also in Burnaby is Brentwood Town Centre/The Amazing Brentwood, which been undergoing redevelopment for the past 4+ years and when I was last in Vancouver had its first retail spaces opening underneath new condos that people were moving into. The first time I visited Brentwood Town Centre a few years ago it was a fairly sad mall anchored by Sears and an abandoned Zellers. Another example in Burnaby under construction right now is Lougheed Town Centre.

Nobody is building new power centres in the Vancouver area; one of the only ones I can think of is Queensborough Landing in New Westminster, which is a nightmare to get to without a car.

Mixed use developments generally don’t exist in smaller cities, so the idea of putting apartments on the same footprint as mall retail is foreign to a lot of people outside larger cities like Vancouver and Toronto.

[MolsonExport]

The formerly majestic Westmount Mall in London has really become a sad place. Even the bagel place, which used to be swarmed by seniors, closed down. Zellers/Target on one end was vacant for years, but parts have been revamped into a goodlife fitness (which is not accessible for inside the mall, thus generating no traffic). At the other end, Sears died an ignoble death...a small portion is now an Urban Planet, but the rest is vacant. The third anchor, a supermarket (formerly an A&P/metro, now a Chinese market) was decapitated from the mall, also generating no foot traffic for the rest of the mall. The second floor is offices/clinics and vacancies. The first floor is 70% vacant, with the other 30% consisting of shitty stores like "SeaBreeze" or "Stamps and Collectibles" or "Discount Persian Rugs", with the odd loser-mall perennial like "Bentley's" or "Ardene" and of course 20 places selling cellphones and cellphone bling. A Rim Whoreton's, a Bulk Barnyard, and a hair salon, and some place to get your toenails pampered. That's what it is.

[stevanford1]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I suppose there isn't much hope for dale.

I have a friend in Oakville who calls it Hopeless. Heres a pic I found.


Speaking of Oakville, Oakville Place is also dead as hell!

[stevanford1]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The formerly majestic Westmount Mall in London has really become a sad place. Even the bagel place, which used to be swarmed by seniors, closed down. Zellers/Target on one end was vacant for years, but parts have been revamped into a goodlife fitness (which is not accessible for inside the mall, thus generating no traffic). At the other end, Sears died an ignoble death...a small portion is now an Urban Planet, but the rest is vacant. The third anchor, a supermarket (formerly an A&P/metro, now a Chinese market) was decapitated from the mall, also generating no foot traffic for the rest of the mall. The second floor is offices/clinics and vacancies. The first floor is 70% vacant, with the other 30% consisting of shitty stores like "SeaBreeze" or "Stamps and Collectibles" or "Discount Persian Rugs", with the odd loser-mall perennial like "Bentley's" or "Ardene" and of course 20 places selling cellphones and cellphone bling. A Rim Whoreton's, a Bulk Barnyard, and a hair salon, and some place to get your toenails pampered. That's what it is.

Isn’t Bulk Barn more power centre fare? Places like Stamps And Collectible, Calendar Club, and Things Engraved are mall cancer. What about Claire’s? I’ve found that they are a lousy mall store.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Doady

Huh? Power centres are replacing malls. The construction of power centres is the reason malls are being demolished. Did you think malls were going to be replaced by apartment buildings or something?

Yes. In fact several mall owners have announced just such plans. Mall retail is dying. Operating costs of enclosed malls are expensive. Not having through traffic as anchor stores collapse is killing them. Meanwhile, the land they sit on is growing more and more valuable with sprawl, making returns on residential higher than retail. As it stands we have a ridiculous amount of retail space per capita:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ies-worldwide/

We could probably stand up lose 20% of the retail space in this country.

[stevanford1]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Here’s another tour of it:

• Video Link

And an even better one:

• Video Link

RollerBlades? Xanadu but with mall carcasses?

[ssiguy]

[QUOTE=manny_santos;89178

Nobody is building new power centres in the Vancouver area; one of the only ones I can think of is Queensborough Landing in New Westminster, which is a nightmare to get to without a car.

Mixed use developments generally don’t exist in smaller cities, so the idea of putting apartments on the same footprint as mall retail is foreign to a lot of people outside larger cities like Vancouver and Toronto.[/QUOTE]

No new power centres in the Vancouver area??.......You need to get out more.

Anything south of the Fraser is nothing but power centres and they have {and continue} to be built at a dizzying pace. The entire region is awash with these centres with basically no decent transit connections.

As for the new condos with street level shopping, in White Rock that has had a devestating effect on the vitality of the area. The main shopping district of White Rock, Johnston Street, has seen dozens of M&P stores been destroyed to make way for tall condo buildings which everyone, without exception, absolutely hate. Now we have more coffee shops and no where to shop so everyone has to go to the local mall or power centres to even get basic groceries.

This was allowed by the former mayor pushed by developers and once one building is allowed, the floodgates were opened. NONE of these huge high rises are even remotely affordable to 90% of the population. Surprise surprise, it was later learned that the mayor got, in true |Vancouver style, a "special deal" on one of the condos.

[Truenorth00]

There's actually a great Wikipedia article on this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retail_apocalypse

And while it may not be true everywhere, Big Box stores are suffering in the US. It might be worse coming out of this era. Eventually those trends will reach Canada. It's just a simple function of us having way too much retail space per capita and far too many indebted consumers to support all of them. As more retail moves online, the biggest value of the store is as a marketing tool and customer service centre. Think Apple store. Outside of a handful of Big Box chains (Apple, Costco, Home Depot, Walmart, etc.), the vast majority of Big Box retail faces a reckoning as their business model is less tenable in an increasingly online world.

Malls actually could survive. As long as they build residential, office and community spaces that connect and bring in for traffic. Replace the old Sears or Zellers with a public library. Have grocery stores as anchors. Etc. I'm still surprised by how many malls don't have a grocery store attached.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by stevanford1

Isn’t Bulk Barn more power centre fare? Places like Stamps And Collectible, Calendar Club, and Things Engraved are mall cancer. What about Claire’s? I’ve found that they are a lousy mall store.

Bulk Barn at Westmount might as well be like a power centre. The store is right inside the door and since the mall is dead, you can park close already.

I don't really have a concern as ME says about the Fit 4 Less or the grocery store being separate from the inside mall because those type of places don't generate foot traffic anyway. You go workout and leave or you go buy groceries and leave. Sears went tits up, just like Eatons in that space before it. Nothing the owners can do about that. The prior owners were trying to lure the Health Unit into that space and when they chose to stay downtown, Bentall sold the mall. They are the ones that brought in Urban Planet to take over the lower level, and have also just about filled the Target, first with Fit 4 Less and a large local accounting firm is taking the upper level (or at least a large chunk of it).

[ssiguy]

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[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

In London, a Toys’R’Us store in the power centre at Wonderland and Southdale has already closed permanently.

A decade ago I didn’t understand why London was still pushing more big box retail along Wonderland Road south of Southdale, a time when the city was barely growing and online shopping was exploding, and while other cities like Ottawa and Kingston were talking about creating more walkable shopping districts. At the time I predicted online shopping would do to that power centre what that same power centre did to nearby Westmount Mall.

While stores like Loblaws, Home Depot, and Canadian Tire will always have a place, I question how many other retailers will remain when this is over. All depends on how many people who have shifted to online shopping will stay there.

Must have been a different thread I commented on the Toys R Us thing a few weeks ago. The notice on their door said they were $136,000 behind in rent. Apparently DSW across the road was also locked out of their store for being $44,000 behind. I don't know how many months that represents, but I'm guessing it's a lot longer than COVID-19 related. The landlord, Southside, is local so I figured Toys R Us picked that store rather than Argyle because the landlord can't really hurt them in other locations than if they defaulted on a large nationwide landlord like SmartCentres and the like. Toys isn't too far removed from their own bankruptcy with closed down their former US parent so hopefully they aren't going down again. They do at least have a very robust online business, but they don't need expensive power centre stores to keep that up.

I also saw an article a few weeks ago that barely 50% of power centre tenants and approx. 25% of major mall tenants actually paid their April rent. Will be interesting to see if a story comes out about May rents.

[Truenorth00]

If a mall like Brampton Shopper's World is toast, there's a lot of other malls sure to follow:

https://www.bramptonguardian.com/new...redevelopment/

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Malls actually could survive. As long as they build residential, office and community spaces that connect and bring in for traffic. Replace the old Sears or Zellers with a public library. Have grocery stores as anchors. Etc. I'm still surprised by how many malls don't have a grocery store attached.

Ironic given that a lot of the regional malls spent most of the last 30 years getting rid of grocery store anchors.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by esquire

Ironic given that a lot of the regional malls spent most of the last 30 years getting rid of grocery store anchors.

True madness. There's nothing that brings as much traffic to a mall as a grocery store. And they aren't even competing with most businesses in the mall, unlike anchor stores.

[esquire]

^ I always sort of wondered about the logic of supermarkets as anchors, though. My local regional mall, St. Vital Centre, is probably one of the only malls left in Canada where Walmart is still part of the mall in the location it took over from Woolco. When I go grocery shopping there, I never, ever visit the rest of the mall... it might as well not exist to me.

I get that habits vary, but I have a hard time imagining that a lot of people go through the mall, buy a bunch of clothes and shoes and whatever, and then lug that stuff over to the supermarket where they drop $200 on groceries right after that.

[Taeolas]

It's probably all about the percents ultimately. Sure most Walmart or Sobeys shoppers probably don't visit the mall on their trips. But surely some percent of them do visit, most likely before their big buying (maybe to swing by a food court for lunch before groceries).

It also keeps the mall visible to people, while the shopper doesn't go to the mall on the bigger shopping trip, they are still aware of the mall, seeing the signs and the rest of the building even in passing; so if they are thinking of something else, they may swing by the mall because it's familiar to them from their bigger shopping trips.

Now I don't know if that's actually the case or not; but it feels like it should be. I'd be curious if stats back it up any or not.

[esquire]

The mall developers must have had their doubts, because it felt like they spent a good chunk of the 90s and 00s getting rid of the supermarkets that were still in major malls. It's only lately, since the department stores all started dying off, that they've had a change of heart.