California High Speed Rail Thread

[phoenixboi08]

Originally Posted by green_man

Is the advantage of the SR14 alignment primarily financial? I could see it adding more time to the trip, but OTOH I have no idea if trains are prohibited from running at full speed through tunnels, so maybe it balances out.

Several advantages: But mainly, Santa Clarita could have been a useful transfer point/hub for this part of the region.

Not a major destination or city, no, but a Santa Barbara-Ventura rail link is a long-term (and interesting) possibility that could link Amtrak's San Joaquins and Coast Starlight, not to mention Metrolink.

Essentially, if they'd simply gone mostly at grade along SR-14 and avoided tunneling under the mountains, it would have been cheaper definitely but also lined them up to combine the utility of this program with local/regional projects (eg. the Sepulvada Pass could have been heavy rail to extend Amtrak/Metrolink to LAX through the Valley and then be positioned in such a way so as to take advantage of the north Harbor Subdivision to reach LAUS).

You get:
1) Direct access between Bay Area for San Joaquins service to LAUS
2) New alternate routes for Metrolink from the Valley to LAUS (allowing improvements on the Burbank-LAUS corridor, which will be neccesary for HSR anyways)
3) Additional service at LAX and a "West" hub there for transfers to other parts of the region and a "North" hub at Santa Clarita

Everyone says this is crazy/unpractical, but I disagree. Along with this routing -- and a Metrolink/Amtrak extension across the Tehachapis to Bakersfield in the interim, until Palmdale is connected for HSR -- this could have been a faster interim manner to get CAHSR to LAUS for 1) minimal cost and 2) with enormous local benefits, that would increase as more direct routing is made to bypass Santa Clarita eventually (ie. tunnels under the mountains) and follow the alignment south towards Burbank.

Essentially, I think the program for LA should have been "Caltrain Electrification On Steroids."

Originally Posted by jamesinclair

On google earth, on the top bar, the 7th button from the left lets you choose which date you view the image.

This allows you to do two things:

1. Identify the exact date youre looking at
2. In some cases, view newer images than the default. Many times the default image will be older because it is better (ie, clouds or bad shadows).

You can see all of Fresno as taken on 2/18/2018

Yeah, I've been using the new web app, and I couldn't locate it for the life of me. I'll take another look.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by phoenixboi08

Several advantages: But mainly, Santa Clarita could have been a useful transfer point/hub for this part of the region.
Essentially, I think the program for LA should have been "Caltrain Electrification On Steroids."

At full build-out, more cross-state HSR trains will sever LAUS during peak hours than will serve SF Transbay. I can't remember off the top of my head but at least 2 HSR trains will terminate at San Jose per hour during peak service due to the low capacity (just 4 trains per hour) at SF Transbay and to free up capacity for Caltrains commuter service.

I agree though that HSR to an upgraded commuter service at Palmdale could be a worthwhile transfer while the giant tunnel is being constructed. But all of that outlay won't matter so much once HSR is in full operation, since a fast commuter service from Palmdale on upgraded tracks won't come close to competing with the excess HSR capacity that will whisk commuters to Burbank Airport and LAUS in just 30~ minutes.

[phoenixboi08]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

At full build-out, more cross-state HSR trains will sever LAUS during peak hours than will serve SF Transbay. I can't remember off the top of my head but at least 2 HSR trains will terminate at San Jose per hour during peak service due to the low capacity (just 4 trains per hour) at SF Transbay and to free up capacity for Caltrains commuter service.

I'm not sure...but I believe LAUS is being redesigned with greater capacity, and all trains from Anaheim/San Diego must pass through LAUS, which isn't the case with trains to/from Sacremento (at least, until a second tube is constructed across the bay).

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

I agree though that HSR to an upgraded commuter service at Palmdale could be a worthwhile transfer while the giant tunnel is being constructed. But all of that outlay won't matter so much once HSR is in full operation, since a fast commuter service from Palmdale on upgraded tracks won't come close to competing with the excess HSR capacity that will whisk commuters to Burbank Airport and LAUS in just 30~ minutes.

Well, more so a transfer point at Santa Clarita.
The benefit is more the Sepulveda connection, increased regional/Amtrak service, and additional capacity via LAX-Harbor Subdivision to LAUS.

It would allow people traveling from East LA/LAX to travel directly North to Santa Barbara or Ventura Counties, the SF Valley, CV, or Northern CA without having to go to LAUS.

[phoenixboi08]

California voters are really starting to get on my nerves:
2007: "Hey, let's vote for this thing. Sounds good."

2010: "Wait. Changed my mind. Let's block it."

2016: "Wow, it's sure getting expensive...someone should just cancel it now and redirect the funds."

2018: "No, really. We're just gonna try that."

This probably has some shot at passing. Expect a bunch of Koch money to flood in. In fact, I bet this pivot has their fingerprints on it.

And, unfortunately, Newsom seems wishy-washy. He'd not expend much effort explaining why this effort would be a pyrrhic victory for these campaigners...It's also rich to hear the LATimes reporting this in such a manner considering Vartabedian has been grossly misleading the public for a decade about HSR.

Oh well. It'll have a second life as a punching bag for republican hopefuls.

Gas-tax repeal backers to launch new campaign to halt California's high-speed rail project




Backers of a November initiative to repeal the gas-tax increase said Monday they will also ask voters to approve a measure in 2020 that would provide funds to fix roads without charging Californians more at the pump, and would halt the state’s $77-billion high-speed rail project.

[jmecklenborg]

This is a disaster. It's designed to pressure the HSR board into delaying the letting of more contracts. They'll say "look how out-of-control the board is -- spending money when they know this vote is coming up".

There is a formula to obstructionism. This is textbook.

[jmecklenborg]

At 49:30 through 53:00 the matter of Metrorail shared use and electrification is discussed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O9u4bsIBFs

The lady affirms that everything from Burbank Airport to Anaheim is being designed to optimize commuter rail service as part of HSR construction. Diesel will enjoy full grade separation between Burbank and LA Union and 30 miles between LA Union and Anaheim. Metrorail will be able to use electric locomotives should they ever switch over.

Also, the San Diego route via the Inland Empire will be designed to accept future high speed rail to Phoenix. There is also a mention that a future HSR connection to Las Vegas was a motivation for the Palmdale routing.

[plutonicpanda]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

The point is that people use what is available to them. In the United States, we do not have public votes for road projects -- ever. The public did not vote to build the interstate highway system, it just happened. In fact it took huge efforts to stop them.

The public does not vote to build or expand airports. It just happens. They are not managed by elected officials.

But rail? Look out. Is harassed endlessly by anti-tax man-boys. Local transit and intercity rail are presented as hobgoblins. Pro-transit, pro-train people are smeared. Randal O'Toole is hired to write a hit piece for the paper.

Rail is becoming more popular by the day and cities that have had no rail network since the streetcars were torn out are now seeing support pouring in to build new rail lines(my hometown of OKC is a shining example).

The public votes all the time to expand roads, freeways, and rail. People do use whats given to them but many will make a choice on what better suits them if alternatives are given. In certain situations, one has to be realistic about what alternatives they can expect based on where they choose to live.

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

The Venetian boat buses, one of the most unique transit experiences in the world imo.

Which is precisely why it's a bad example to use.

Originally Posted by phoenixboi08

California voters are really starting to get on my nerves:
2007: "Hey, let's vote for this thing. Sounds good."

2010: "Wait. Changed my mind. Let's block it."

2016: "Wow, it's sure getting expensive...someone should just cancel it now and redirect the funds."

2018: "No, really. We're just gonna try that."

This probably has some shot at passing. Expect a bunch of Koch money to flood in. In fact, I bet this pivot has their fingerprints on it.

And, unfortunately, Newsom seems wishy-washy. He'd not expend much effort explaining why this effort would be a pyrrhic victory for these campaigners...It's also rich to hear the LATimes reporting this in such a manner considering Vartabedian has been grossly misleading the public for a decade about HSR.

Oh well. It'll have a second life as a punching bag for republican hopefuls.

Even though I do not like the fact any funds at all are going from SB-1 to build or support bicycle, mass transit lines, or anything else that isn't a road or freeway, I still support it because it's the best hand dealt right now. California simply can not wait any longer. Our transit systems needs expanding and rebuilt as do our roads and freeways. So I'm willing to compromise and support SB-1. Anyways I am pessimistic here, but I think prop six will pass.

I think I've said this before here, but I am not happy about the HSR in it's current form. I wish we'd spend more money and build MagLev as opposed to the older conventional HSR methods.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by plutonicpanda

I think I've said this before here, but I am not happy about the HSR in it's current form. I wish we'd spend more money and build MagLev as opposed to the older conventional HSR methods.

Building a maglev between San Francisco and Anaheim in line with Phase 1 of HSR would require 90 more miles of grade separation and would not improve SF or LA commuter rail at all. Doubtful that a maglev switching operation would allow full speed passing at local stations.

The reason why maglev hasn't taken over the world is because its ONLY advantage is a slightly higher top speed, but compromises in dozens of ways.

It's unlikely that in 100 years airline travel or rail travel will have changed significantly.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by plutonicpanda

I think I've said this before here, but I am not happy about the HSR in it's current form. I wish we'd spend more money and build MagLev as opposed to the older conventional HSR methods.

If it made so much sense the whole world would be doing it. Outside of one short line in Japan, they are not. "Conventional rail" doesn't have to mean antiquated. No one goes around dismissively calling automobiles that sit on rubber tires "conventional autos" .

[jmecklenborg]

At the most recent public meetings, CAHR has announced that the likely preferred routing for Palmdale-Burbank. It will be the SR 14 route, which will involve 6-7 tunnels ranging in length from 1/2 mile up to 13 miles.

The route was chosen because the rock conditions along that corridor are much better than either of the long tunnel alternatives and so there is much less potential risk.

They have at least one former mining pit which they plan to fill with spoil from the tunneling.

As for use of the existing Metrolink tracks by HSR, the speakers made a point to emphasize that an all-surface route paralleling those tracks would be 18 miles longer and the grade and curves preclude full speed.

Here is a video of the most recent meeting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MRjG2i2tkw&t=0s

[phoenixboi08]

Construction Tour: California High-Speed Rail (Fall 2018)

• Video Link

I will be glad once all the large, civil works wrap up over the next 12-18 months and they begin to be stitched together.

If for no other reason than for people to accept it's a concrete thing that is currently (at least) happening rather than a hypothetical.

But I'm getting a bit anxious to see the rolling stock bids advance

[DJM19]

Thats quite an impressive viaduct.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by DJM19

Thats quite an impressive viaduct.

Which concerns me a lot. There's some pretty big (AKA: expensive) pieces in this first construction package and it's in the easiest parts of the entire path. I can't even imagine how much more expensive things are going to get when we start getting into the geographic barriers and urban areas.

[jmecklenborg]

The majority of the central valley alignment is at-grade and boring. That's how 113 miles of HSR is being built for far less money than the 15~-mile Wilshire Subway.

Aside from the stations, these three structures are just about it so far as unusual pieces of engineering for 100+ miles. Photos of the grade separations under construction out in the almond and strawberry fields are pretty boring.

Also, people need to remember that the central valley track -- what we're looking at right here -- is the only part of the HSR network designed for 220mph travel. The express trains will blow through the local stations at 200mph which is why this viaduct, trench, and pergola with their shallow grades and gentle turning radii are necessary.

[phoenixboi08]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

Which concerns me a lot. There's some pretty big (AKA: expensive) pieces in this first construction package and it's in the easiest parts of the entire path. I can't even imagine how much more expensive things are going to get when we start getting into the geographic barriers and urban areas.

All the bids in Phase 1 pencil out at like $30 million/mile (something like $3.5 billion for ~120 mi.).

As much as people hyperventilate about this project, and as much as the media is desperate for this narrative, CAHSR is notall that expensive.

And the things that have made it expensive (utilities relocation, roadworks, land acquisitions, litigation/delays, scope creep due to "community concerns," expansion of the timeline, etc) have really been mostly beyond the control of the Authority and really fall at the feet of voters and [some] elected officials

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

The majority of the central valley alignment is at-grade and boring. That's how 113 miles of HSR is being built for far less money than the 15~-mile Wilshire Subway.

Aside from the stations, these three structures are just about it so far as unusual pieces of engineering for 100+ miles. Photos of the grade separations under construction out in the almond and strawberry fields are pretty boring.

Also, people need to remember that the central valley track -- what we're looking at right here -- is the only part of the HSR network designed for 220mph travel. The express trains will blow through the local stations at 200mph which is why this viaduct, trench, and pergola with their shallow grades and gentle turning radii are necessary.

Actually, I think those other things are interesting and are important to show.
Otherwise, I think it allows the creeping perception that these big concrete works are "white elephants."

I firmly believe once work begins on stitching together the entire line (eg. embankments/berms, trackbeds, etc), it will feel less ephemeral to the public -- and media will be compelled to actually report on the thing as if it is, indeed, under construction and happening.

[Busy Bee]

And the things that have made it expensive (utilities relocation, roadworks, land acquisitions, litigation/delays, scope creep due to "community concerns," expansion of the timeline, etc) have really been mostly beyond the control of the Authority and really fall at the feet of voters and [some] elected officials

Don't forget the accommodation and pacification of the private freight railroads. Just imagine how much less expensive and less necessary some of the infrastructure aspects would be if the freight rail that interacted within the hsr row was nationalized or owned by the state of California.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Don't forget the accommodation and pacification of the private freight railroads. Just imagine how much less expensive and less necessary some of the infrastructure aspects would be if the freight rail that interacted within the hsr row was nationalized or owned by the state of California.

Why would that be any cheaper for the CHSR line construction if California owned the freight corridors? Just about all their concerns are over safety and liability, wouldn’t these concerns be the same no matter who owns the freight rail corridors? And wouldn’t the remedies cost the same?

[Busy Bee]

I might be missing something, but big picture, it sure seems like it would have been possible that both the pergola south of the river and the downtown trench would have been made unnecessary if the hsr row could have gotten to the east side of the UP row. Sure there were other obstacles and plenty of shifting of rails necessary as well as crossing 99, but if you had the freight railroad cooperate as if the same endeavor instead of adversarial it could have been accomplished.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I might be missing something, but big picture, it sure seems like it would have been possible that both the pergola south of the river and the downtown trench would have been made unnecessary if the hsr row could have gotten to the east side of the UP row. Sure there were other obstacles and plenty of shifting of rails necessary as well as crossing 99, but if you had the freight railroad cooperate as if the same endeavor instead of adversarial it could have been accomplished.

...and that same issue is going to drive up Phase 2 to San Diego.

However, it's interesting to note that Phase 2 will establish an entrance for Phoenix HSR for both LA and San Diego. SD obviously has far fewer residents than the LA basin, but no doubt the market exists for at least a few SD-Phoenix trains per day.

I have not been to Phoenix or driven into the desert east of San Bernardino, but 250 miles of HSR through that wasteland will likely be very cheap to build as compared to the Calfornia HSR in the central valley since there will be much less meddling with parallel corridors and few local stations out there in the true middle-of-nowhere.

Seems like a LA Union or San Diego to Phoenix transit time using 120mph Phase 2 tracks to San Bernardino would surely be under 3 hours, and possibly under 2:30.

[phoenixboi08]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Don't forget the accommodation and pacification of the private freight railroads. Just imagine how much less expensive and less necessary some of the infrastructure aspects would be if the freight rail that interacted within the hsr row was nationalized or owned by the state of California.

Well, but that's what I mean.

All the construction packages 1-4 came in at less than $40mil/mile.
Those civil works associated with the freight RRs are including in the design-build contracts, no? Or is the Authority handling some of it, separately?