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  #21  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2008, 2:14 PM
FairHamilton FairHamilton is offline
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He told us some years ago that he planned no improvements. "I just collect the rents. That's it."

That would be from Pizza Pizza, the Pagoda Downtown Restaurant and the Wintas Digital computer shop.

That amounts to about $75,000 a year after expenses, Ammendolia explains. So without even looking at development possibilities in the largely empty Treble Hall, he says, that's about a 7 1/2 per cent return on a million-dollar investment.
And there's the rub, $75K net for no work. Essentially, a license to print money.

The city should purchase it, and make it a community based arts, theatre, meeting space and get rid of a absentee slumlord.
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  #22  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2008, 2:26 PM
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The guy has held onto that building for nearly 50 years and he's done nothing. Think of all the rent money he has collected over the years and now he's asking for nearly $1 million for the building.

The city was going to purchase this building but instead they'll buy the strip joint with the $1 million fund.
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  #23  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2008, 3:35 PM
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This Abe guy pisses me off.
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  #24  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2008, 4:39 PM
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Seriously, the city should buy it. Call it Stage #1.

Stage #1 - They don't have to do anything with the property right now, just buy it. Then take rental income (or a good portion of the rental income), and put that back into the up-keep and maintenance of the building. That way the building will be maintained and perhaps slightly improved until there's additional money to go to the next step, Stage #2.

Stage #2 - When money is available (put a time limit/deadline, i.e. 6 - 7 years) then renovate for arts, museum, community hall, concerts, rent the hall to caterers for corporate parties/gatherings, etc. If the money or political will is not present at deadline to start Stage #2 then sell it to someone who has a plan and financing.

Get it out of Abe's hands before it gets willed to the next generation. Who knows they might be a worse slumlord. The devil you know......
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  #25  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2008, 5:39 PM
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Think of all the rent money he has collected over the years
In this particular case, tenancy rent = economic rent = unearned income.
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  #26  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2008, 6:50 PM
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a lot potential with this. but it's the same story with much of the problems with downtown. Too much is owned by Toronto and Montreal... and if it's local it's owned by our do-nothing, no-money-on-the-line, big-talking, home builders/land speculators.

This is slowly changing tho... some good stock has and is being purchased by locals whom intend to do something. Let's hope that's what happens with Treble.

Someone should start a trust. A local REIT... the same way the CFL teams in Winnipeg and Saskatchewan are owned publicly. Buy shares (like a Credit Union) and use the collective money to purchase downtown properties for development. Start with Treble, get 5,000 people to put down $500 = $2.5 mil. Offer the a**hole 500K and invest $2 mil into redevelopment and start making money.
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  #27  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2008, 6:57 PM
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Hmm, $1,000,000 for Treble Hall?

I'm selling my 1995 Pontiac for $50,000.
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  #28  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2008, 7:07 PM
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Should be renamed Trouble Hall.
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  #29  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2008, 1:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realcity View Post
Someone should start a trust. A local REIT... the same way the CFL teams in Winnipeg and Saskatchewan are owned publicly. Buy shares (like a Credit Union) and use the collective money to purchase downtown properties for development. Start with Treble, get 5,000 people to put down $500 = $2.5 mil. Offer the a**hole 500K and invest $2 mil into redevelopment and start making money.
This is a good idea.

The problem is that REITs have to be accretive from inception. Alot of these properties would be high risk distressed sales and would need considerable money to turn arround and start making money. This sort of thing would be too risky for a REIT to fly. You would need to provide a 8-9% return to be competitive and attract investors.
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  #30  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2008, 2:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Dundasguy View Post
This is a good idea.

The problem is that REITs have to be accretive from inception. Alot of these properties would be high risk distressed sales and would need considerable money to turn arround and start making money. This sort of thing would be too risky for a REIT to fly. You would need to provide a 8-9% return to be competitive and attract investors.
Then buy it and operate it as a Co-Operative.

With no (limited) capital investment beyond the initial purchase price provides a 7.5% net return based on the information provided in the article. Co-ops don't require the same return, so reduce the return to 4.0% and go forward.

Based on the current net rental income, you could raise $1.8M and still get a 4% return. That would provide the $1M for the purchase and $800K for fees and improvements, which should increase the rental income. You could make disbursements via dividends which are taxed at a preferential rate to make the return more attractive.

So, for $1.8M you would need 1,800 members at $1K/share, or 3,000 members at $600/share, etc.

My wife and I would buy one share each, so only 1,798 or 2,998 left to go........ If the City Hall limestone falls through I'll re-purpose our pledges and pick-up a 3rd share.
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  #31  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2008, 2:42 PM
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Does anyone have blueprints for Treble Hall?
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  #32  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2008, 2:48 AM
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I don't think blueprints from the 1880s would have made it to fiche. They certainly wouldn't be as detailed as they are today.
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  #33  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2008, 3:08 AM
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This is the first time I've agreed with Dundasguy...
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2009, 3:31 PM
11thIndian 11thIndian is offline
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Any sources for info?

I've been trying to find interior pictures of Treble Hall but the web has failed me. In general, information seems pretty slim.
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  #35  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2009, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FairHamilton View Post
Then buy it and operate it as a Co-Operative.

With no (limited) capital investment beyond the initial purchase price provides a 7.5% net return based on the information provided in the article. Co-ops don't require the same return, so reduce the return to 4.0% and go forward.

Based on the current net rental income, you could raise $1.8M and still get a 4% return. That would provide the $1M for the purchase and $800K for fees and improvements, which should increase the rental income. You could make disbursements via dividends which are taxed at a preferential rate to make the return more attractive.

So, for $1.8M you would need 1,800 members at $1K/share, or 3,000 members at $600/share, etc.

My wife and I would buy one share each, so only 1,798 or 2,998 left to go........ If the City Hall limestone falls through I'll re-purpose our pledges and pick-up a 3rd share.

okay then don't call it a REIT. I thought I knew what I was talking about.

FairHamilton got the point. Just issue bonds from 5000 local investors for a mere $500. Then turn into a co-op investment or whatever it's called. $2.5 million (minus the purchase price of $500k) could do a lot to that bldg and make it respectable. Heck try for 10,000 investors and consider a tower above it.

Harry Stinson's Hamilton Grand is asking for SEC approval the same way that a REIT would. Even so, just another hurdle, it still doesn't make it impossible or a viable investment, just bc SEC needs to be involved, heck it actually gives credibility to the project.

I'd be in line with my cheque if that was the case. It'd make more money then AIC would do with my $500.
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  #36  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 1:27 AM
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I may be doing a viewing of this property of Friday with some partners. I'll report back on condition.
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  #37  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 1:37 AM
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Originally Posted by 11thIndian View Post
I may be doing a viewing of this property of Friday with some partners. I'll report back on condition.
thanks, we appreciate it
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  #38  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 3:29 AM
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I eagerly await your report.
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  #39  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2009, 9:11 PM
Duckyboy Duckyboy is offline
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So... does 110thIndian have news from the inside of Treble Hall? I'm on pins and needles waiting to find out ANYTHING about the interior.
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  #40  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2009, 12:18 AM
11thIndian 11thIndian is offline
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I will be viewing the property tomorrow afternoon. But some interesting notes have come from the agent.

•Pizza Pizza extends back into the main building, eating up either one or two of the storefronts N of King (where the Hamilton photos are set up I imagine). Meaning there is only one empty retail space on the ground floor.

•Pagoda Restaurant also extends back into the 2nd story of the 4-story portion of the building. Though it's unclear as to how much.

•From what I understand, much of the 2nd and 3rd floors have been broken up into smaller rooms. So there may be no recognizable "Treble Hall" to restore anymore.

I'll have to see for myself. My feeling though is that it's in rough shape...
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