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  #121  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 3:20 AM
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  #122  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 4:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Franco401 View Post
This isn't a news discussion forum, and last I checked bashing the LGBTQ community has fuck-all to do with First Nations, so what's your real motivation in backing up the transphobe?
Pointing out that male genitalia are male genitalia is not transphobic, and it's not LGBTQ bashing.
     
     
  #123  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 7:43 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Back on topic, if there is to be reconciliation there needs to be negotiation in good faith. I question whether that is happening any more. The hereditary chiefs are like negotiating with a moving target. It promotes extremism as the most vocal opponents simply declare themselves the rightful spokespeople for the tribe.

We saw that here in Ottawa with the Zibi project. The people involved in the project negotiated in good faith with the local first nation and came to an agreement but then immediately there was opposition with others representing the same nation. Since the land was in private ownership, this could only so far. As soon as it is government or crown land, first nation's leverage it much more to their advantage. It is a sad statement, that there is not always fair negotiation that creates a win-win.
Yep, the elected representatives of 20 First Nations signed on to Coastal Gas Link. They’re the ones who are actually accountable to their band members. They need to speak out and not let unaccountable “hereditary chiefs” perpetuate the lie that they are somehow the only true spokespeople for their nation. It’s funny how the Left who are so quick to mock Christian religious tradition sign on to any superstitious belief when it comes from somebody indigenous. Why is “my grandfather’s spirit is in that whale” any less ridiculous than “Jesus rose from the dead”?
     
     
  #124  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 9:13 AM
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Do the Wet’suwet’en actually feel represented / want to be represented by the elected band council though, or do they feel that the hereditary cheifs represent / should represent them? Or both? Neither?

Has anybody asked them?
     
     
  #125  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 2:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
Do the Wet’suwet’en actually feel represented / want to be represented by the elected band council though, or do they feel that the hereditary cheifs represent / should represent them? Or both? Neither?

Has anybody asked them?
Apparently they had an election there not that long ago where the pipeline was a major issue. The pro-pipeline people won and the anti-pipeline people lost.

So that gives us an idea.
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  #126  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 3:22 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Yep, the elected representatives of 20 First Nations signed on to Coastal Gas Link. They’re the ones who are actually accountable to their band members. They need to speak out and not let unaccountable “hereditary chiefs” perpetuate the lie that they are somehow the only true spokespeople for their nation. It’s funny how the Left who are so quick to mock Christian religious tradition sign on to any superstitious belief when it comes from somebody indigenous. Why is “my grandfather’s spirit is in that whale” any less ridiculous than “Jesus rose from the dead”?
Three of the hereditary chiefs who support the pipeline had their titles stripped:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...ree-women-who/
     
     
  #127  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 4:10 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
. Why is “my grandfather’s spirit is in that whale” any less ridiculous than “Jesus rose from the dead”?
If you really want to win over the pseudo left, tell them your grandfather's spirit was a female whale in a burqa.
     
     
  #128  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 5:29 PM
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Quote:
“This dispute is characterized is as if there’s a dichotomy between the hereditary and elected chiefs,” said Val Napoleon, the University of Victoria’s Law Foundation professor of Aboriginal justice and governance and co-founder of the school’s new Indigenous law program, in a phone interview Wednesday. “That’s a problematic oversimplification.

“There’s no sharp line within the Wet’suwet’en people. Some of the people on the band council are also hereditary chiefs. You’re talking about the same families, house groups and clans, all people linked by history, family and being part of a historic society that has its own legal order that’s been undermined.”
Quote:
“If you look at the Delgamuukw court case … it was clear the hereditary chiefs have authority over the traditional territories and band councils have authority over the reserves.”

Asked about how Wet’suwet’en chiefs are chosen, Mills said the ancient system isn’t passed down through parentage — like the British royal family, whose leader remains Canada’s head of state — but rather by being bestowed in public with the previous chief’s name and regalia.

Each Wet’suwet’en house is headed by a hereditary chief, chosen “based on their nature, their comportment and their knowledge and skills.” Those are the same chiefs who collectively represent their clan.
https://www.thestar.com/vancouver/20...derground.html

Quote:
There is a tendency to dismiss the hereditary chiefs as just a group of opponents, in contrast to the 20 First Nations that have approved the pipeline. This is deeply misleading.

The plaintiffs in the landmark Delgamuukw case before the Supreme Court were the hereditary chiefs, not the band councils. The court accepted detailed evidence of the Wet’suwet’en hereditary governance system and confirmed that the Wet’suwet’en never surrendered title to their ancestral lands.

The hereditary chiefs are not merely a group of disgruntled opponents; they represent the Wet’suwet’en system of law and governance.
Quote:
Horgan’s insistence on the “rule of law” fails to acknowledge that the relevant law includes not just the injunction order and regulatory approvals but the Constitution, Supreme Court decisions, and — crucially — Wet’suwet’en laws and institutions.

The hereditary chiefs embody those laws and institutions and enjoy an authority that predates the arrival of the British and the creation of the Canadian state. This authority is entitled to respect.
By Stepan Wood, Professor and Canada Research Chair in Law, Society & Sustainability, University of British Columbia;
Gordon Christie, Professor of Law, University of British Columbia; and
Jocelyn Stacey, Assistant Professor, University of British Columbia.

http://theconversation.com/coastal-g...-matter-130870

Food for thought because statements like:
Quote:
It’s funny how the Left who are so quick to mock Christian religious tradition sign on to any superstitious belief when it comes from somebody indigenous. Why is “my grandfather’s spirit is in that whale” any less ridiculous than “Jesus rose from the dead”
are neither constructive nor helpful in understanding this clearly complex situation.
     
     
  #129  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 6:00 PM
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Delgamuukw was a disaster for Canada.
     
     
  #130  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 6:37 PM
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Dura lex sed lex.
     
     
  #131  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 6:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
Do the Wet’suwet’en actually feel represented / want to be represented by the elected band council though, or do they feel that the hereditary cheifs represent / should represent them? Or both? Neither?

Has anybody asked them?
ELECTED band council. We don't need to ask them whether they "feel" represented or not. If they didn't want to be represented by them, they'd have elected different people.

No one ever asked me whether I "felt represented" by legitimately-elected PM Justin Trudeau. How come? (And what if my answer to that question is "no, I don't"? Remove him from office? Allow me to ignore from now on whatever laws and policies this Parliament votes?)
     
     
  #132  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 7:01 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
ELECTED band council. We don't need to ask them whether they "feel" represented or not. If they didn't want to be represented by them, they'd have elected different people.

No one ever asked me whether I "felt represented" by legitimately-elected PM Justin Trudeau. How come? (And what if my answer to that question is "no, I don't"? Remove him from office? Allow me to ignore from now on whatever laws and policies this Parliament votes?)
And pointing out again for posterity, two of the rabble rousers ran for band council and were defeated by pro-pipeline candidates. It was then that Naziel and other men decided to take the hereditary chief title away from the women who held them.

On the issue of the professional protestor gang seizing the issue and usurping First Nations' voice, this is interesting:

The K’òmoks First Nation has issued a statement saying it was not involved with the blockade on Highway 19 on Feb. 10.

According to K’òmoks First Nation Chief Nicole Rempel, K’òmoks First Nation was never contacted or advised of the event and they are disappointed their name was unknowingly used.

“This event was organized by non-indigenous Comox Valley residents who aren’t connected to our territory in the same way as K’òmoks, and in no way represent K’òmoks or our values. It is saddening to see the racist comments in social media aimed at our community when K’òmoks was not involved,” Rempel wrote in the statement.

Wet’suwet’en supporters blocked the Inland Island Highway in both directions near Courtenay for approximately 22 hours on Monday. The protest organizers described themselves as a group of concerned residents on K’òmoks Territory that had the aid of K’òmoks Nation people....


https://www.cheknews.ca/komoks-first...l-says-646022/
     
     
  #133  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 7:32 PM
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All of these protests have laid bare how incredibly undemocratic the Reserve system is and also the real divisions in the First Nations itself. FN are people who were here before Europeans and after that the similarities pretty much end. FN are not one big monolithic cultural group with unified values, priorities, or even governance but are treated by Ottawa and the MSM as being exactly that. It is very similar how the Toronto/Montreal centered media like to talk in generalities about "The West" like all 4 provinces somehow are a singular socio-economic region.

These protests are also a reflection of Ottawa's complete preoccupation with Ontario and Quebec. Let's face it, if these rail protests were just a BC/Alberta reality, they MIGHT make the 3rd page of the national media and disregarded as just a regional issue and would have gotten little attention from Ottawa. The FN knew this which is why they had to protest in Ontario and Quebec and bring VIA to a screeching halt in order to get Ottawa's attention and the MSM's interest. It really does speak volumes.
     
     
  #134  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 8:39 PM
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More dissenting First Nations opinions:


Protesters standing in solidarity with the Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs are only inflaming an already intense situation, and have disregarded the years of consultations conducted with First Nations along the pipeline route, says Ellis Ross, who served for 14 years on one of the 20 elected band councils that signed an agreement with Coastal GasLink.

“There’s a lot of people that aren’t from these communities, that aren’t Aboriginal, that are saying hereditary leadership has full authority, and they’re not doing it based on any facts. It would be like me saying that the elected leadership of B.C. and Canada has no authority, and it’s the Queen who has all authority,” said Ross, now the Liberal MLA for Skeena, B.C. “That would be a very destabilizing remark to make. It’s a very irresponsible remark to make.”

Five Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs have claimed they have title to a vast 22,000-square-kilometre area, about four times the size of Prince Edward Island, and that the elected chiefs only have authority over reserve lands. Ross questioned the validity of this point of view given that Aboriginal title belongs to Indigenous communities and is not held by any specific individual or group.

“A lot of what I see out there right now, from these people talking about it, is basically opinion. It’s not fact,” he said, adding that nobody has ever proved that elected chiefs have authority only over reserves. “In fact, in the Indian Act band councils are legally authorized to sign agreements and contracts on behalf of the communities.”...

....Andrew George, a member of the Wet’suwet’en Nation and wing chief of the Gidimt’en, told APTN on Tuesday that Wet’suwet’en Elders are worried about the escalating demonstrations across Canada.

“What currently is going on does not reflect the true governance of the Wet’suwet’en – on both sides,” he said, adding that he is particularly concerned about young people blocking trains and chaining themselves to police cars. “When you look at what’s happening with the youth, it’s spreading like wildfire, but there’s no control.”

He called for a rare all-clans meeting to address the issue.

“We are afraid something bad might happen,” George said, adding it’s up to the Wet’suwet’en Nation to take charge....


https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...ent-aboriginal
     
     
  #135  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 9:02 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
ELECTED band council. We don't need to ask them whether they "feel" represented or not. If they didn't want to be represented by them, they'd have elected different people.

No one ever asked me whether I "felt represented" by legitimately-elected PM Justin Trudeau. How come? (And what if my answer to that question is "no, I don't"? Remove him from office? Allow me to ignore from now on whatever laws and policies this Parliament votes?)
But given the choice, would they have had these elections in the first place, or would they have foregone the elections and said "as per our longstanding customs, our leaders and representatives are chosen by such and such a system, which we all agree upon and are fine with?"

I don't think the answer to this question is irrelevant, and the answer is different depending who you ask.
     
     
  #136  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 10:21 PM
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If they want to be represented by the hereditary chiefs, no problem, all they have to do is elect them to the elected positions of actual power.

The actual reason Justin Trudeau is PM right now is not that he's the son of former PM PET, it's that he was elected. The result in practice is the same as if father had passed power to son, except for the huge difference that it's been validated democratically. Similarly, the hereditary chiefs, if they're indeed that popular, should have no problem getting each generation democratically elected - if it's true that they're who the people want as their leaders.

Hereditary power isn't acceptable in a democracy. Thought experiment - what if I get elected Mayor of Sherbrooke in the 2020s, I'm fairly popular, and thanks to my popularity I eventually manage to permanently change the city charter so that from now on, the position forever gets passed to my kids and their descendants? You'd be okay with this AND with the City of Sherbrooke continuing to receive provincial/federal funds under all the same conditions as before?
     
     
  #137  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 10:33 PM
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Yes, and as a country I would say we generally agree that that's how it should go.

If that's not how individual First Nations want to choose (all of) their leaders/representatives though (ie directly through elections), I don't think the only correct response is, "well, you have to, because we say so."
     
     
  #138  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Luisito View Post
It wasn't just the LBGTQAB3DASDFGHSJHH!$"$^%$1234' community that supported Johnathan Yaniv. There were a lot of straight people saying that too.
You are applying a double standard here, treating people who aren't straight as a coordinated group while admitting that there are a range of opinions on the straight side.

Nobody ever accuses "the straight community" of anything (you guys overpopulated the world, committed the Holocaust plus seem to like MMA and mullets and you're complaining about the Yaniv stuff!?).
     
     
  #139  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 10:36 PM
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In this case aren't the hereditary chiefs also claiming that they have title to the land, essentially as individuals?

Apologies if I'm getting this wrong, the story is getting harder and harder to follow.
     
     
  #140  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2020, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
Yes, and as a country I would say we generally agree that that's how it should go.

If that's not how individual First Nations want to choose (all of) their leaders/representatives though (ie directly through elections), I don't think the only correct response is, "well, you have to, because we say so."
I actually don't know with certainty exactly how much autonomy FNs have, but I would say that unless a FN can anytime decide to, for example, take their territory out of Canada and join the USA as a new American territory (like Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.) then they also don't have the required autonomy to unilaterally decide to run themselves with feudal systems.

In other words - they're still part of Canada. I think.
     
     
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