VIA Discussion Thread

[snowmobile]

People in Winnipeg would never take a train to Fargo how would they bring back their 10 dollar tees from target? And the only two busses that ever go that route are the ones housing the goldeyes or the RedHawks. Speaking of which, apparently in the early 2000s, the goldeyes fan club took a charter bus down to St Paul to watch the team on a three game set. After being blown out on the first two nights, they voted to skip the Sunday matinee to go to Albertville. Some fan club. Anyway Winnipeg is too far from any large centre for a train.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I'm sure it's inevitable for the reasons you stated, but even if a decision was reached today by government and industry to make it happen, it would still be over a decade before trains started running. And from what I gather, Alberta is nowhere near the point of making a decision to proceed.

It's free to ponder and debate possibilities, which is what we are doing. Some things (like Edmonton to Calgary) are inevitable, once attention focuses on it; until then, it's all pie in the sky dreaming regardless.

The fact that the governments aren't (publicly) looking at these types of things or actively working on them is irrelevant. Passenger rail outside of SOON in Canada is already basically dead, we're talking on what could be done to revive it. I don't think anyone would believe there would be any real action on anything talked about any time soon. Hell, most (if not everyone) would be surprised if anything were to get started before the 2020's. (Even Ontarios HSR is 2018 shovels to the ground in the best case I think).

[eternallyme]

Even in the US, many urbanized regions outside the Northeast Corridor have poor to no train service.

The best service elsewhere is likely in the Pacific Northwest, California, parts of the Midwest and the Southeast I-85 corridor.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MasterG

Personal auto-trip:
Assume a downtown to downtown trip like the others. Highway is usually pretty good, but the cities on either end are increasingly congested and slower to get to the centre of.

3 - 4 hours depending on traffic, increasingly variable due to congestion in either big city at either end.
$25-40 worth of gas (highly variable depending on your vehicle)
** Big asterisk: Requires car ownership ** Let's assume a range from $0.10 - 0.15 / km in total ownership costs * 300km for this trip. Probably an underestimate, but ownership is super variable costs depending on the car so for argument's sake. For this example, it works out to $30 - 45 for a car.
$55-85 total cost each way.

Valid math, but the problem is, most car drivers fail to account for cost of ownership when calculating the cost of driving somewhere--often they account only for gas. As a result they think driving long distances is a lot cheaper than it really is.

[Innsertnamehere]

my understanding is that the cost to run a typical midsized sedan is roughly $0.50 / km.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

Are you going to take the horse and buggy to the station?

The way some of you guy's romanticize about train travel is hilarious. Privatize it all. If it makes sense somebody will operate some sort of high speed to compete with planes and cars. But longing for better passenger service out west (or east of QC)is just silly. How long to go from Edmonton to Winnipeg, 24 hours? I'll pass (and so does everybody else).

Do you realize that even in countries where rail travel is common, services tend to be government owned and operated, and not profitable? There are very few places in the world where what you're asking for is even possible.

As for me, when I travel in China, I always take the train if its available. It's just so much more comfortable and convenient than air travel.

[Blitz]

VIA has a very good loyalty program and great corporate discounts as well. If you combine these perks with the knowledge of knowing exactly when to purchase tickets (prices change in predictable patterns) then the costs work out to being only slightly higher than driving. Over the past year I've taken over 40 trips on VIA throughout SW Ontario and only once did the train arrive over an hour late (and when that happens they give a 50% refund). It's a great travel alternative, at least in the southern Ontario corridor.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by Blitz

VIA has a very good loyalty program and great corporate discounts as well. If you combine these perks with the knowledge of knowing exactly when to purchase tickets (prices change in predictable patterns) then the costs work out to being only slightly higher than driving. Over the past year I've taken over 40 trips on VIA throughout SW Ontario and only once did the train arrive over an hour late (and when that happens they give a 50% refund). It's a great travel alternative, at least in the southern Ontario corridor.

Yup, I suspect few people have any qualms about Via's service in the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridors, along with the service around Toronto and around Montreal. It could be better, but Via does seem to be working on improving it.

I think the main discussion is to see how they can spin that outside that corridor, to start building the framework they lost decades ago to satisfy other (and future) corridors. Calgary Edmonton is the blatantly obvious one, Moncton Halifax is the slightly less obvious one, and from then, we'll have to see basically.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

no where does it go that there is not a major highway and thus bus or service.

Better check on that one.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's priced as though Delta doesn't want you to use the flight just to go to Minneapolis

It's because there's no competition on the route. It's even more expensive to go from Winnipeg to Chicago.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

It's because there's no competition on the route. It's even more expensive to go from Winnipeg to Chicago.

The funny thing is that you can fly to other DL hubs (ATL, DFW etc.) for roughly the same price as a flight to MSP, and DL dominates those routes. But you're right, UA does the same thing with ORD.

[ssiguy]

The problem with VIA being a Crown Corporation is that this inevitably involves politics.
Back in the 80s when Mulroney cut VIA funding to the bone one of the Western routes had to go. The most logical one was the Northern route thru Edmonton but it was the Southern Calgary route that got cut. Why? ........because the Minister who did the chopping , Don Mazoncoski, represented Vegreville and had a lot of connections with the Edmonton political class, hence Calgary and the Southern route didn't have a chance.

It's laughable that you can get from Prince George to Prince Rupert on a train but not get from Edmonton to Calgary.

If VIA is to get rid of it's non-Corridor services, which it should, it will have to offer a token to Western Canada or it will be seen as just another Eastern vote grabbing iniative that Western Canadians will have to subsidize. The resurrection of Cal/RD/Edm service would compensate for that and is definitely a route that would have the ridership to support it.

Cal/Edm are 300km apart which is probably the most ideal distance for HSR being faster than bus, car, or plane. It is also helped by Cal/Edm both having good LRT based transit systems and strong downtown cores and both universities are also on LRT routes. The ROW and rail tracks are already there which is half the battle and there is definitely strong popular support to make it viable.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Blitz

VIA has a very good loyalty program and great corporate discounts as well. If you combine these perks with the knowledge of knowing exactly when to purchase tickets (prices change in predictable patterns) then the costs work out to being only slightly higher than driving. Over the past year I've taken over 40 trips on VIA throughout SW Ontario and only once did the train arrive over an hour late (and when that happens they give a 50% refund). It's a great travel alternative, at least in the southern Ontario corridor.

If you properly factor in the true cost of driving, even at the highest prices, VIA is cheaper than driving.

Starting next month, I'm going to be living in Kingston and working in Ottawa. I'll be telecommuting most days, but I'll have to travel into the office every Monday and on the first Thursday of each month. Plus I expect go to Ottawa about one weekend a month or so to visit family and friends--that adds up to 12-14 (average of 12.6) one way trips per month.

And I'm going to be taking the train. In the Corridor, VIA offers passes that gives you 20 one-way trips per month between two pre-determined cities for a fixed monthly fee. The one for Ottawa-Kingston costs $430/month. That comes out to an average cost, over the long run, of $34/trip, which is roughly the same as when they go on super sale, but this way I can get that rate all the time guaranteed. Plus, as a monthly pass product, the pass is HST-exempt and can be claimed as a tax credit. I also have to pay for transit connections within Ottawa which will run me an average of $35/month as well (I'll already own a Kingston transit pass anyway, so I'm not factoring that in). So all in all, the cost of my commute is $465/month.

I don't have a car, but even if I did, the VIA option would be cheaper. That commute would entail 2,500 km of driving every month, which would cost a lot more than $465/month considering ownership costs.

Also, I can work on the train and it counts as time, thus reducing the number of telecommute hours I have to do on the days I'm in Kingston. At my salary the hours I expect to work on the train is almost $800 a month worth of time... so in a way, I'm actually making money off my commute.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

If you properly factor in the true cost of driving, even at the highest prices, VIA is cheaper than driving.

Starting next month, I'm going to be living in Kingston and working in Ottawa. I'll be telecommuting most days, but I'll have to travel into the office every Monday and on the first Thursday of each month. Plus I expect go to Ottawa about one weekend a month or so to visit family and friends--that adds up to 12-14 (average of 12.6) one way trips per month.

And I'm going to be taking the train. In the Corridor, VIA offers passes that gives you 20 one-way trips per month between two pre-determined cities for a fixed monthly fee. The one for Ottawa-Kingston costs $430/month. That comes out to an average cost, over the long run, of $34/trip, which is roughly the same as when they go on super sale, but this way I can get that rate all the time guaranteed. Plus, as a monthly pass product, the pass is HST-exempt and can be claimed as a tax credit. I also have to pay for transit connections within Ottawa which will run me an average of $35/month as well (I'll already own a Kingston transit pass anyway, so I'm not factoring that in). So all in all, the cost of my commute is $465/month.

I don't have a car, but even if I did, the VIA option would be cheaper. That commute would entail 2,500 km of driving every month, which would cost a lot more than $465/month considering ownership costs.

Also, I can work on the train and it counts as time, thus reducing the number of telecommute hours I have to do on the days I'm in Kingston. At my salary the hours I expect to work on the train is almost $800 a month worth of time... so in a way, I'm actually making money off my commute.

Wow, it sounds like you've really thought this one through.

This reminds me of what a transport prof once told me years ago. People who take any form of transportation alternative to the car actually make "rational" choices - they gather information, weigh the alternatives and then select the mode or option that works best for their needs.

Car drivers don't make rational choices. Not only do you just impulsively reach for the car keys, but you actually make your decision to travel fit your car, rather than the other way around. You take unnecessary trips because you feel that you've sunk so much money into your car, which means that you spend even more money and let your car depreciate even more through wear and tear.

Generally transportation is a cost (in time and money) that people try to minimize, but car owners may actually induce more transportation. That seems to be the height of irrational thinking to me.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I don't have a car, but even if I did, the VIA option would be cheaper. That commute would entail 2,500 km of driving every month, which would cost a lot more than $465/month considering ownership costs.

If you did have a car, there is no way the train would be cheaper. Most people who have cars do not factor in all costs and just worry about gas, as that is the main cost if you already own a car.
You could probably drive round trip from Kingston to Ottawa on like 20 or 30 dollars worth of gas.

$465 is just way too high for such a short trip. For that cost you could own a car and gas it up each month.

Believe me, I understand why you take the train, and I would do the same. But it ends up costing more than the car.

[Aylmer]

The ownership costs of a sedan are around $0.50/km and operation is about $0.15-20 for gas and maintenance.

So here are the costs of driving for operation followed by ownership:

Ottawa-Montreal: $35/$100
Ottawa-Toronto: $75/$255
Toronto-London: $45/$130

Calgary-Edmonton: $50/$150

Regina-Saskatoon: $45/$130

Halifax-St.John: $70/$200


Those aren't ridiculous prices, though I think the challenge is to create a pricing structure which makes it competitive for groups.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

If you did have a car, there is no way the train would be cheaper. Most people who have cars do not factor in all costs and just worry about gas, as that is the main cost if you already own a car.
You could probably drive round trip from Kingston to Ottawa on like 20 or 30 dollars worth of gas.

$465 is just way too high for such a short trip. For that cost you could own a car and gas it up each month.

Believe me, I understand why you take the train, and I would do the same. But it ends up costing more than the car.

Are you serious? If I was driving 2,500km every single damn month, I'd spend a hell of a lot more than $465 per month!

Gas is NOT the only cost of driving per kilometre. Far from it. Every kilometre you drive means less time to your next oil change, less time to your next tire replacement, and ultimately, less time until you have to buy a whole new car.

Driving a staggering 2,500km a month, I'd have to replace my tires, change my oil, fill up my brake fluid, and such very often. The costs would be astronomical.

A car lasts what, 300,000km before it dies for good? I'd have 10 years per car. That alone is say, $1600 a year if I get a good deal on a new sedan. Comes out to $133 per month.

I'd also be averaging some $250 per month in gas costs.

My workplace in Ottawa charges for parking as well; $5 per day, $60 per month. That's some $25 per month in parking costs for me.

We're up to $408.

Plus factor in that due to tax credits (which cannot be claimed for any auto-related expenses), that $465 will actually be $401 in the end. Boom, already cheaper, and we're not even factoring in ANY mechanical or maintenance costs.

Trust me, I made the financially smart decision.

I think you're completely ignoring my 'cherry on the sundae' point as well. I can work on the train, and get some hours in DURING my train commute. I cannot do that if I'm driving.

Also, such a short trip??? Kingston to Ottawa is 200 kilometres!!!! That's TWICE the distance from Toronto to Kitchener. That's not a short commute. A monthly pass just in the city proper of Toronto costs $140, and that's talking about distance of what, 40km max?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

The ownership costs of a sedan are around $0.50/km and operation is about $0.15-20 for gas and maintenance.

So here are the costs of driving for operation followed by ownership:

Ottawa-Montreal: $35/$100
Ottawa-Toronto: $75/$255
Toronto-London: $45/$130

Calgary-Edmonton: $50/$150

Regina-Saskatoon: $45/$130

Halifax-St.John: $70/$200


Those aren't ridiculous prices, though I think the challenge is to create a pricing structure which makes it competitive for groups.

Just a word of caution pertaining to Saint John as, for the sake of clarity, the Saint is never abbreviated for the NB community as it is with St. John's.

[VIce]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

If you did have a car, there is no way the train would be cheaper. Most people who have cars do not factor in all costs and just worry about gas, as that is the main cost if you already own a car.
You could probably drive round trip from Kingston to Ottawa on like 20 or 30 dollars worth of gas.

$465 is just way too high for such a short trip. For that cost you could own a car and gas it up each month.

Believe me, I understand why you take the train, and I would do the same. But it ends up costing more than the car.

For me, they'd work out about even just on gas alone (@1.15/L), neglecting insurance / maintenance costs, and the amount of work I'd be able to do on the train.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Are you serious? If I was driving 2,500km every single damn month, I'd spend a hell of a lot more than $465 per month!

Gas is NOT the only cost of driving per kilometre. Far from it. Every kilometre you drive means less time to your next oil change, less time to your next tire replacement, and ultimately, less time until you have to buy a whole new car.

Driving a staggering 2,500km a month, I'd have to replace my tires, change my oil, fill up my brake fluid, and such very often. The costs would be astronomical.

A car lasts what, 300,000km before it dies for good? I'd have 10 years per car. That alone is say, $1600 a year if I get a good deal on a new sedan. Comes out to $133 per month.

I'd also be averaging some $250 per month in gas costs.

My workplace in Ottawa charges for parking as well; $5 per day, $60 per month. That's some $25 per month in parking costs for me.

We're up to $408.

Plus factor in that due to tax credits (which cannot be claimed for any auto-related expenses), that $465 will actually be $401 in the end. Boom, already cheaper, and we're not even factoring in ANY mechanical or maintenance costs.

Trust me, I made the financially smart decision.

I think you're completely ignoring my 'cherry on the sundae' point as well. I can work on the train, and get some hours in DURING my train commute. I cannot do that if I'm driving.

Also, such a short trip??? Kingston to Ottawa is 200 kilometres!!!! That's TWICE the distance from Toronto to Kitchener. That's not a short commute. A monthly pass just in the city proper of Toronto costs $140, and that's talking about distance of what, 40km max?

The biggest drawback that I see with the taking the VIA, is that the costs that you have factored for the train do not include any travel outside of the Kingston to Ottawa corridor. For example, if you wanted to go to a cottage up north for a weekend, you'd have to find (and pay for) a transportation option to get there and back, whereas if you owned a car, the car ownership costs are fairly inelastic for that type of trip.

The modal choice associated with travel needs vary greatly with what those needs are.