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View Poll Results: Which Religion are you?
Hindu 4 2.13%
Buddhist 2 1.06%
Christian 58 30.85%
Jewish 2 1.06%
Muslim 2 1.06%
None 114 60.64%
Other 6 3.19%
Voters: 188. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Oooh, a conspiracy! It would be interesting to know who's been paying the legal bills. But I can't make too much of any "agenda", since all they pushed back against is an arbitrary Conservative government position that had no basis in law. It doesn't seem much of a struggle when victory is assured.
I don't honestly think it's a conspiracy theory (insinuating that it's something that's being made up) to suggest that a certain fringe of the Muslim community in Canada is pushing for increasing accommodations in line with their religious beliefs and practices.
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:32 AM
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Et justement...

For all the people on here who support a veiled woman being allowed to take the citizenship oath, how do you feel about all the jokers who want to vote with a ski mask, or a hockey helmet, or even a pasta strainer? Should they be allowed to? If so, why? If not, why not?

I am genuinely interested in hearing your views.
We have spoken of this in the election thread. It seems that they will be allowed to vote as long as they follow the rules for identifying themselves. Nothing new and nothing controversial. In a free society, I guess we must collectively swallow the disrespect and jacka**ery, but if they actually think they are making some kind of political point, I think they're delusional. Of course things could change if they were denied the right to vote despite following the rules, but I haven't seen any indication that might happen. By the way the costume for voting thing has had no media attention that I've seen here in Ontario. Is it a Quebec thing?
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:33 AM
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It's definitely more than some girl fighting for her rights. There is an agenda on both sides. The conservatives are using the issue to get votes, and of course there are no doubt hardcore Muslims who are helping her cause.

Canadians are generally tolerant and liberal, but there is a growing anti-Muslim sentiment due to all the negative media coverage of Muslims being tied to acts of terrorism. It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out.
Maybe it's just me but I haven't even thought about terrorism at all in my reflections on this issue. Extremism, sure.
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  #64  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:33 AM
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I don't honestly think it's a conspiracy theory (insinuating that it's something that's being made up) to suggest that a certain fringe of the Muslim community in Canada is pushing for increasing accommodations in line with their religious beliefs and practices.
Well, whatever it takes to secure our constitutional rights. Especially against a government that tries to violate them without a legal basis.
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  #65  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:34 AM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
We have spoken of this in the election thread. It seems that they will be allowed to vote as long as they follow the rules for identifying themselves. Nothing new and nothing controversial. In a free society, I guess we must collectively swallow the disrespect and jacka**ery, but if they actually think they are making some kind of political point, I think they're delusional. Of course things could change if they were denied the right to vote despite following the rules, but I haven't seen any indication that might happen. By the way the costume for voting thing has had no media attention that I've seen here in Ontario. Is it a Quebec thing?
I haven't heard anything in mainstream media. But it's definitely a thing in social media. From people in Quebec and other provinces including Ontario from what I can see.
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:39 AM
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As for me, I'm an atheist "Secular Humanist". What this means is that I believe that everything is relative, with any relevance or importance that exists being solely the subjective perception of the person or entity it relates to, and that the universe has no objective fundamental meaning. I don't believe there is any sentient power such as deities, spirits, dead ancestors, etc. or that there is any grand plan, fate, or "meant to be". However, I believe that religion and spirituality is a fundamental aspect of human psychology and human existence. For any entity with enough mental capacity to have self awareness and the ability to analyse and study the world around it, there's a need for answers to questions that aren't explainable through observation. Creating narratives such as creation myths, afterlives, and omniscient beings can help people deal with grief, stay strong in adversity, and take comfort in the thought of a powerful protector.

Not believing that such things actually exist frees me to invent whatever narrative that I desire and find useful. I believe that we are the spirits, the higher power, the magical beings that for centuries we've mused about. We may not be immortal or omniscient, but at least we're real. I believe that our existence is something rare, precious, and magical, but also precarious. Knowing that although nothing has any intrinsic meaning or value but that I have the power to give meaning and value to anything I wish, I have chosen to assign this meaning to humanity. To human feelings, suffering, passion, creativity, curiosity, and most importantly, human survival. Without survival, none of these other things exist. This means that the most important things to me are for people to care about and respect one another, for humanity to unify and find common ground rather than seek insularity, and for people to put compromise and reconciliation ahead of history, culture, power, politics, or most anything else.

This illustrates a striking difference between me and a traditionally religious person. For some religious people, nothing is more important than the higher power in which they believe. If they have a conflict with people of another religion or even with people differently interpret the same religion, they often feel that because they're fundamentally right and have a higher power on their side, that they'll prevail in the end. Therefore there's less need for things like compromise. With me, I believe the opposite. We're all we've got, and because we've got no omniscient baby-sitter in the sky, we have to behave. We have to be grown ups and do the responsible thing. We can't afford to allow things to divide us as we are all one people and we need to work together to ensure survival.
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I haven't heard anything in mainstream media. But it's definitely a thing in social media. From people in Quebec and other provinces including Ontario from what I can see.
I don't do social media so can you explain what the intention is? Are they thinking they're making some point of principle or are there elements who plan NOT to follow the identification rules and then try to spin some issue out of it? It may just be my age, but it all seems so strange.
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Et justement...

For all the people on here who support a veiled woman being allowed to take the citizenship oath, how do you feel about all the jokers who want to vote with a ski mask, or a hockey helmet, or even a pasta strainer? Should they be allowed to? If so, why? If not, why not?

I am genuinely interested in hearing your views.
I assume you're directing that at people other than me as I've discussed that in the other thread in some detail lol.
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:43 AM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Oooh, a conspiracy! It would be interesting to know who's been paying the legal bills. But I can't make too much of any "agenda", since all they pushed back against is an arbitrary Conservative government position that had no basis in law. It doesn't seem much of a struggle when victory is assured.
You often say this like it's 100% guaranteed that Western World laws would automatically side with you. It's really not the case.

As you might know, the European Court of Human Rights has ruled in favor of some countries' (France and Belgium at least) bans on face veils in public...
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:44 AM
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You often say this like it's 100% guaranteed that Western World laws would automatically side with you. It's really not the case.

As you might know, the European Court of Human Rights has ruled in favor of some countries' (France and Belgium at least) bans on face veils in public...
Canada aspires to higher standards. I guess...
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:45 AM
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I don't do social media so can you explain what the intention is? Are they thinking they're making some point of principle or are there elements who plan NOT to follow the identification rules and then try to spin some issue out of it? It may just be my age, but it all seems so strange.
It seems like there are a number of different reasons and motivations. None of them particularly savant.
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:47 AM
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I don't honestly think it's a conspiracy theory (insinuating that it's something that's being made up) to suggest that a certain fringe of the Muslim community in Canada is pushing for increasing accommodations in line with their religious beliefs and practices.
You say that as if it were a problem. The entire system is designed to enable those needing accommodation to seek it, and to get it where merited. Unless our Charter was nothing more that a Potemkin village...
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:49 AM
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You say that as if it were a problem. The entire system is designed to enable those needing accommodation to seek it, and to get it where merited. Unless our Charter was nothing more that a Potemkin village...
It's not (really) a problem at the moment.
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 3:57 AM
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Maybe it's just me but I haven't even thought about terrorism at all in my reflections on this issue. Extremism, sure.
I hadn't really either, but many people have associated Islam with terrorism, and have a negative view of the religion. Those people are easy votes for the conservatives.
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 4:08 AM
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Canada aspires to higher standards. I guess...
If you mean Europe, that's not setting our bar very high in this context.
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  #76  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 4:09 AM
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Surprised 38% adhere to a religion on here but I suppose Canada is a pretty religious country when looking at the first world (moderately religious when looking at the entire world).

I prefer no religion, I think it leads to a more harmonious and productive society imo. But I may be biased coming from one of the least religious countries on this planet so maybe I just don't "get it". I mean I was never exposed, never read a religious book or gone to a religious center etc. Certainly never have heard of a single family member no matter how removed who has had any ties to any sort of religion or adherence etc. (on my side), I suppose for many people in Canada and the world that is rare. Like my wife who is from SA where religion is pretty important, so when I go there I study what the fuss is all about (beyond the typical fear of death, control stuff...which I get some people have a phobia and/or need to be "held together"...and the rest grow up with it and you know the deal with that..)..\

Interesting stuff though, I like these kinds of polls.
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 4:10 AM
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I love a good old chinwag about religion. To start: seeing as how the patterns and course of my life seem eminently normal to me, I can't imagine doing anything other than having a childhood with religion and an adulthood without. You need Sunday School to understand the foundations of the culture we live in; then in your teens you need to begin questioning the stuff they fed you; and once you hit twenty you need to see it for the sham it is and cure yourself of the brainwashing.

Oh, then in your thirties you begin to appreciate the beauties of ecclesiastical music, art and architecture while explaining to your uncomprehending relatives that it's the same as enjoying a good Greek myth without worshipping Zeus.

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Living in London I find the place to be a veritable Jesus-land.
But maybe my view is filtered through the lens of me having grown up in the Mos Eisley of Canada.
Since moving here I've noticed that southwestern Ontario is a bit American seeming with the Christianity and the conservatism, and of course it's worse outside of the urban centres. You see signs for the Christian Heritage Party along the country roads, along with the most eye-glazingly idiotic anti-abortion billboards you could ever imagine ("it's a Holocaust!" etc.). Astonished by the fact that Stratford has a "mayor's prayer breakfast" once a year, I sent an email to city hall asking what the heck they were doing explicitly linking the city's political office with a preferred religion, and within minutes received a phone call from the mayor himself (I was startled--he'd looked my number up in the phone book). He took great pains to explain that it wasn't such a big deal, and it is justified by the fact that he does other events in his capacity as mayor that he doesn't always completely agree with. Yes, I think he actually does think that makes sense.
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 4:17 AM
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I love a good old chinwag about religion. To start: seeing as how the patterns and course of my life seem eminently normal to me, I can't imagine doing anything other than having a childhood with religion and an adulthood without. You need Sunday School to understand the foundations of the culture we live in; then in your teens you need to begin questioning the stuff they fed you; and once you hit twenty you need to see it for the sham it is and cure yourself of the brainwashing.

Oh, then in your thirties you begin to appreciate the beauties of ecclesiastical music, art and architecture while explaining to your uncomprehending relatives that it's the same as enjoying a good Greek myth without worshipping Zeus.



Since moving here I've noticed that southwestern Ontario is a bit American seeming with the Christianity and the conservatism, and of course it's worse outside of the urban centres. You see signs for the Christian Heritage Party along the country roads, along with the most eye-glazingly idiotic anti-abortion billboards you could ever imagine ("it's a Holocaust!" etc.). Astonished by the fact that Stratford has a "mayor's prayer breakfast" once a year, I sent an email to city hall asking what the heck they were doing explicitly linking the city's political office with a preferred religion, and within minutes received a phone call from the mayor himself (I was startled--he'd looked my number up in the phone book). He took great pains to explain that it wasn't such a big deal, and it is justified by the fact that he does other events in his capacity as mayor that he doesn't always completely agree with. Yes, I think he actually does think that makes sense.
We are much of a mind on that, I see.

Re the "prayer breakfast" thing, isn't that actually pretty common as an ecumenical event? For a politician of any stripe and whatever his religious beliefs to reach out to religious as well as other communities seems a pretty normal thing to me.
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 4:31 AM
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I'm decades removed from being in the loop when it comes to Christian, specifically Protestant, practices. Meaning: I really need to watch myself at weddings and funerals, as I tend to forget that services are considered sacred and taken seriously.

At one wedding I attended the minister started up his sermon, and I swear to, erm...anyway, I could have sworn that he was mimicking Reverend Lovejoy from the Simpsons. The sanctimonious tones of his opening sentence were exaggerated to the point of caricature, and I sincerely thought he was taking the piss. I burst out laughing.

It was the only time in my life that I've been stared at by a hundred and fifty people in silence. In lieu of sinking into the pew and disappearing, I sat there in stone-faced contrition for the rest of the service. Afterward my brother and I snickered over my gaffe, but I learned my lesson.
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2015, 4:45 AM
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Re the "prayer breakfast" thing, isn't that actually pretty common as an ecumenical event? For a politician of any stripe and whatever his religious beliefs to reach out to religious as well as other communities seems a pretty normal thing to me.
The word "ecumenical" is generally used in a Christian context ("it's so heartwarming to see the Baptists and the Uniteds worshipping together!"), and they seem mostly Christian to me. Especially in Stratford, where we don't have much in the way of "ethnic" communities.

I'm sure probably some mayor's prayer breakfasts pay lip service to "encouraging those of all faiths to attend," but do a quick Google search, and most of the Canadian and American results that come up make no bones about how Christian they are.
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