Amazon Seeking 2nd Headquarters: Canadian Cities Pitch Interest

[DrNest]

Originally Posted by ACT7

This list is kind of idiotic. YYZ is more globally connected than any other airport on that list except for NYC. Basing the ranking on sheer volume of pax traffic doesn't make a tonne of sense.

Off the top of my head, I would say LAX, Chicago and SFO are equally, if not more so connected than YYZ. Additionally, when you consider travel within the US, which many of Amazon's employees would require, then ATL, DTW, CLT and others are way ahead of YYZ.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

This one now feels it was planned for attracting Amazon all along. It really didn't make any sense until now.

http://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/east-harbour

First thing I thought as well. Also. Wynne would be willing to bathe Amazon in tax breaks, Feds would cut them a deal also.

I personally don't want Amazon here. I don't want thousands of imports who make gobs of money to now enter the already tight housing market, Toronto would become SF overnight very quickly with housing prices.

Amazon staff indirectct spending would be on avocados and dog food.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by DrNest

Off the top of my head, I would say LAX, Chicago and SFO are equally, if not more so connected than YYZ. Additionally, when you consider travel within the US, which many of Amazon's employees would require, then ATL, DTW, CLT and others are way ahead of YYZ.

For American destinations, YYZ is also quite a bit more expensive to fly your employees into and out of than those American cities are.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by Jaws

This ain't Gilbert Plains, or Roblin, or Swan River.

No one said it was....

[WhipperSnapper]

It's proposed as a head office. They won't be reporting to Seattle.

[Mikemike]

That's what they say.
Not too likely, though.

Since NAFTA is apparently open for renegotiation I would love to see the kind of dedicated tax breaks and subsidies that Amazon appears to be fishing for be outlawed.

[DrJoe]

Originally Posted by patm

Where on earth would they build an 8,000,000 SQFT campus for cheap in Toronto???

Calgary has to be the front runner out of Canadian cities.

Educated technical idle workforce, Lots of cheap office space urban or suburban, Low residential real estate costs compared to Vancouver and Toronto, Tendency to build big and creative (show me a city with a better skyline per capita), Developed airport with 8 daily short flights to Seattle, Two Universities (albeit not super quality, would be improved with this), Good Transit system for a city with such inexpensive real estate (once Green Line is finished), Close timezone wise, Proximity to mountains....

I think Calgary has the best shot out of Canadian cities (which overall might be a long shot still).

Oh man the delusion is strong in some of these posts. I'd place Calgary's odds at less than 0%. I would explain but I'm sure feelings would be hurt.

[patm]

Originally Posted by DrJoe

Oh man the delusion is strong in some of these posts. I'd place Calgary's odds at less than 0%. I would explain but I'm sure feelings would be hurt.

Some strong Center of The Universe feelings in this thread.

But we know you guys like to think that Eastern Canada is the only Canada. Obviously if cost isn't an issue than Toronto will beat all other options in Canada. Sort of a dick move on Amazons part accepting RFP's from cities of a million people if they don't place high importance on cost of real estate and cost of living since there's obviously little a city under 4 million could do to compete with the major centers. Lots of wasted energy and resources will be spent on this if that's the case.

[craneSpotter]

According to several interviews with Tech leaders in Seattle today - they feel Toronto is the most likely location for HQ2.

IMO Montreal would be in second place due to the size and vibrancy of tech industry there - but only if TO shoots itself in the foot. Vancouver would be distant third due to costs and being so close a neighbour (plus Amazon already has ~700,000 sq ft of office and fulfillment center space in Vancouver - already - for western Canadian regional operations). There are no other suitable metro areas for them in Canada after those three.

Hard to beat TO and its business infrastructure along with the busiest airport in Canada - and also don't forget Toronto Island airport, too. Some feel Amazon has likely already chosen the location and is using this for negotiating power. Or perhaps this 'contest' is just political, to influence immigration laws.

Edit -- The most likely : Toronto, Boston, Charlotte (fairly close to THE triangle), Washington, Atlanta, Dallas.

[osmo]

In digging deeper into the RFP...

Quite obvious this is cooked for a few select cities. When you dig deep into it, very few actually offer what Amazon is looking for. The site requirements with direct links to mass transit is a big one. They want an urban or pseudo-urban campus, no suburban office park. Next, labour pool requirements. Toronto - one of the most educated population bases in the OECD, and also one of the most underemployed as everyone here has a post-secondary education but could be working in Starbucks (Montreal ranks high for this in some regard also). Also, the fluffy stuff like Government initiatives towards computer science in schools, youth, and girls, etc. Ontario Govt has been bullheaded about in implementing for years now even before it was cool to do so.

But the mass transit and highway combo are a key addition to that the availability of land and places such as Boston, NYC, DC become less attractive as the land requirements for infill would be too complex to make happen (Show me 100 acres of space they could pop up to make work).

The more you dig into it it becomes clear this thing is cooked for a certain few cities with Toronto being the front runner with all the empty space in East Harbour they can use (which will be connected by Subway, GO, Streetcar - shoulders the DVP highway).

Originally Posted by craneSpotter

According to several interviews with Tech leaders in Seattle today - they feel Toronto is the most likely location for HQ2.

IMO Montreal would be in second place due to the size and vibrancy of tech industry there - but only if TO shoots itself in the foot. Vancouver would be distant third due to costs and being so close a neighbour (plus Amazon already has ~700,000 sq ft of office and fulfillment center in Vancouver already - and currently has ~300 job openings for western Canadian regional operations). There are no other suitable metro areas for them in Canada after those three.

Hard to beat TO and its business infrastructure along with the busiest airport in Canada - and also don't forget Toronto Island airport, too. Some feel Amazon has likely already chosen the location and is using this for negotiating power. Or perhaps this 'contest' is just political, to influence immigration laws.

This is a big part of it. Bezos and the WH are not on good terms as the WH wants to go after Amazon's tax breaks. This would make big time news is Amazone chose Canada and Toronto versus the USA to set up shop. The news would all likely pile on Trump as this shift is a result of his immigration policies. ....Does not hurt Bezos owns the Washington Post...

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by technomad

I think Calgary could actually have a decent shot at this..

Originally Posted by patm

Calgary has to be the front runner out of Canadian cities.

I know the homer delusion is strong on SSP, but seriously: who are you people? The idea that they'll put this thing outside of the US is far-fetched enough as it is. It makes zero business sense to choose to ship things across an international border if you don't need to. I'm no business guru, but even I know this.

And I don't know what metrics they used on that list, but ranking Boston at 8th in North America for universities is farcical.

[whatnext]

No, thanks. We should pass on all the inevitable requests for corporate welfare that will come with it.

Besides America and the World will be better of if coastal tech companies invest in the American heartlands (ie. those areas that voted for the abomination that is Donald Trump). Change in culture can be driven by companies with a strong commitment to progressive values. In short, I'd rather see Amazon go to Topeka than Toronto.

[Vixx]

I'm just writing this off the top of my head, but here's what I think are some advantages and disadvantages for each of our CMA's in the million+ category.

Vancouver: Being geographically close to Seattle hurts their chances big time. It wouldn't make logistical sense. However being a desirable place to live and having a similar culture to Seattle could incentive Amazon to at least seriously explore the option. Maybe Amazon wants to keep a tight leash on HQ2? If so, then Vancouver would make sense. However high cost of living seriously hurts Vancouver's chances as well. Being in the same time zone as Seattle could help (I think this is a point exaggerated by thats me) however in the event of an earthquake, both Seattle and Vancouver would be affected and if HQ2 is located incredibly close to Seattle, it could cripple Amazon's operations overnight. Having one of the most highly rated airports in the world and being a cargo hub does help too.

Calgary: Having a young, professional transient population helps however many of Calgary's best are not tech geeks. The U of C is not a computer science magnet and Calgary would have to rely on people from across Canada and the U.S to fill the void if they were chosen. Calgary is a good balance of the white collar professional's looking to make money and hipsters opening avocado and coffee joints in a trendy area. Something that fits with Amazons culture. Calgary has the downtown office space to accommodate Amazon for the first little while, but does Amazon want to be in a space where the price of rent wildly fluctuates depending on whether there is a rally in energy? Calgary could suggest Amazon have their own dedicated space somewhere in downtown or in the suburbs and use current vacated space to setup shop temporarily. Good airport connections help, but Calgary is not a tech hub and would rely on many non-tech related incentives (good quality of life, reasonable housing, growing and dynamic city, business friendly).

Edmonton: If Edmonton were dead serious on pitching a really strong bid, then they would have to rely on creativity to even get Amazon interested. Logistically, it wouldn't make much sense being the most northernly major city in North America; Edmonton is relatively isolated (same with Calgary). However, Edmonton is a growing city, with a large young and educated population anchored by two major universities (with the U of A being a really respectable institution). The city has been trying to change their image by rejuvenating downtown and telling Amazon that they could be a part of a rapidly growing, changing city would make for a nice story. Edmonton could so something bold like partner with Katz and say Amazon could build a campus north of Rogers Place, or the city could offer to turn Blatchford (a large swath of land close to downtown) into a Amazon's playground. Or, offer land in Leduc where the airport is located and where there is a building boom going on right now. However, the fact that Edmonton is sprawly, not very pedestrian friendly and doesnt offer the typical lifestyle culture I'm sure many Amazon employees love works against them.

Montreal: Already has a well established tech scene, offers a great urban lifestyle and a fairly reasonable cost of living. However, there is no doubting the language barrier presents itself as a MAJOR obstacle; Amazon sure as hell does not want to bother itself with abiding to language laws and forcing a large percentage of their workforce to learn and speak French. Logistically speaking Montreal makes sense and is surrounded by world class universities. Also, the fact that Quebec is a heavily taxed jurisdiction would mean they are at a disadvantage compared to a place like Texas, however the services Montreal can offer (daycare, cheap tuition etc.) are enticing. I think had language not been such a huge issue then Montreal would be a major dark horse in the race.

Ottawa: As I said before, Ottawa offers a very high standard of living for its residents, cost of living is reasonable, unemployment has traditionally remained low and both Carleton University and UOttawa have very strong computer science and engineering programs that have produced many individuals to go on to create great startups within Ottawa or gone on to Silicon Valley. Ottawa has arguably the strongest tech scene in the country, with most of the major players having at least some presence in the city and highlighting that, coupled with showing that the city has been able to foster and expand innovative tech companies, might get Amazon to perk their ears. Ottawa is situated in a good spot too, close to Montreal, Toronto, NYC, D.C. etc. so that would be good. However, there's two major holdbacks. One is that Ottawa is not a airport hub, being so close to Trudeau and Pearson has limited destination offerings, as well Ottawa's airport is not the largest cargo hub either, so its hard to fall back on that. Also, I think Ottawa could accommodate Amazon's expansion overtime, but where is a major question mark. Kanata is the obvious answer, however I can't think of a giant parcel of land there that could be entirely offered to Amazon, as well, Kanata is your typical boring suburbia removed from Ottawa's downtown. Not sure if this is very attractive for potential Amazon employees. Also, not sure Amazon is interested in being located in Kanata, Barrhaven, downtown etc. I think they'd prefer a centralized spot and I'm having trouble figuring out one single location where Amazon could be. Ottawa has the foundation and backbone to make it work, but lacks that extra something that others can offer.

Toronto: Realistically the most viable Canadian option. Toronto is a global hub for transportation, manufacturing, finance etc. you name it. They have the space to accommodate Amazon right away (whether it be downtown or out in the suburbs) and logistically speaking Toronto is in a very good spot. Toronto has a respectable tech scene already in place, world class universities and the workforce to be able to fulfill Amazon's demands relatively fast. Plus (and this goes for Ottawa as well) Ontario would likely offer the most attractive incentives of any province to Amazon and that is clearly a major consideration. However, Toronto has a high cost of living and things such as high hydro costs, high rent etc. could add up to become a bit of a problem. But Toronto for obvious reasons has got infrastructure in place to make Amazon feel at ease that it would strive there.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

It's proposed as a head office. They won't be reporting to Seattle.

That's what puzzles me about this two HQs thing. If their functions are not somehow differentiated, it seems like a recipe for corporate confusion. Will one perhaps be the "worldwide HQ" and the other the "NAmerican HQ"?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by craneSpotter

According to several interviews with Tech leaders in Seattle today - they feel Toronto is the most likely location for HQ2.

IMO Montreal would be in second place due to the size and vibrancy of tech industry there - but only if TO shoots itself in the foot. Vancouver would be distant third due to costs and being so close a neighbour (plus Amazon already has ~700,000 sq ft of office and fulfillment center space in Vancouver - already - for western Canadian regional operations). There are no other suitable metro areas for them in Canada after those three.

Hard to beat TO and its business infrastructure along with the busiest airport in Canada - and also don't forget Toronto Island airport, too. Some feel Amazon has likely already chosen the location and is using this for negotiating power. Or perhaps this 'contest' is just political, to influence immigration laws.

Edit -- The most likely : Toronto, Boston, Charlotte (fairly close to THE triangle), Washington, Atlanta, Dallas.

Good thing that Ontario has a government (for now) with vast experience of "investing" in corporate expansions.

[ACT7]

Originally Posted by DrNest

Off the top of my head, I would say LAX, Chicago and SFO are equally, if not more so connected than YYZ. Additionally, when you consider travel within the US, which many of Amazon's employees would require, then ATL, DTW, CLT and others are way ahead of YYZ.

In terms of number of international destinations served, no they simply aren't. It's true they would be more connected to U.S. cities but how many small/secondary U.S. cities would be relevant connections in the end. I'm not saying this is a factor or not, but the list's ranking is not accurate IMO in that respect.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

That's what puzzles me about this two HQs thing. If their functions are not somehow differentiated, it seems like a recipe for corporate confusion. Will one perhaps be the "worldwide HQ" and the other the "NAmerican HQ"?

I think you can say with some confidence that they will be differentiated. The head office for personal and commercial banking for any of the five banks is not going to necessarily be in the same building as the head office for capital markets and private equity investments.

People are wrapped up a little too much in airports here. It's proposed as a head office and not a giant Amazon fulfillment centre. All you need is an airport with decent connections around North America for business travel. Costs will be contractual through airlines and hotels.

[LeftCoaster]

I do wonder why any high level executive would chose a Canadian based HQ to be reporting to given our personal income tax structure.

That alone will probably sway Amazon away from Canada.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I do wonder why any high level executive would chose a Canadian based HQ to be reporting to given our personal income tax structure.

Unless of course they're going to domicile in Canada - far lower corporate taxes.

[LeftCoaster]

But in terms of recruitment etc... Canada would always be the second favoured HQ by anyone making 100K+.