The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by UptownJeff

Would be great to see the site of the Lyric Theatre turned into a condo complex with retail on the ground floor

The large lot across the street too would be ideal for a three sisters type condo project

[sjuser23]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

Who's supplying the fair market value for that land? A new buyer or the city itself? Again, I don't see property developers scrambling at the opportunity of new land becoming available. There isn't exactly a development rush on all of these burnt out properties.

It's an unfortunate circumstance, but forcing a landowner to do something with their property or risk losing it after an event that they had no control over doesn't sit well with me.

If the city had lower taxes on everything we probably wouldn't have such problems.

How about if there was a surtax on vacant land? Hopefully to encourage people to develop their empty lots of sell them off. If someone owns a nice apt building, let's say they pay $6000 in property taxes. they let it get run down, now they pay $3000. They let it get torn down and empty lot, now they pay $500. What if it went the opposite? Could we encourage people to fix up old buildings, make them more rentable? What effect could something like this have on the Old North End? What about empty lots uptown left undeveloped?

[dhottawa729]

Originally Posted by sjuser23

How about if there was a surtax on vacant land? Hopefully to encourage people to develop their empty lots of sell them off. If someone owns a nice apt building, let's say they pay $6000 in property taxes. they let it get run down, now they pay $3000. They let it get torn down and empty lot, now they pay $500. What if it went the opposite? Could we encourage people to fix up old buildings, make them more rentable? What effect could something like this have on the Old North End? What about empty lots uptown left undeveloped?

To play devil's advocate for a moment, consider that those slumlords don't have the money to fix up their buildings and maybe they are just getting by financially with the income from the property. Old buildings usually have tons of problems resulting in the owner never being able to get ahead. One major problem (mold, cracked foundation, etc) and they guy can't pay his bills and then the building becomes in a state of disrepair. I think they would then see it as a blessing when the building, mystrious or not, burns down and all they have to pay is $500 in property taxes as well as make an insurance claim to recoup their losses. At that point, someone with money could offer them market value for the previously unsaleable property releiving them of their financial woes, and potentially build a much nicer income-generating replacement that is no longer a blight in the urban landscape. It almost seems natural just as a dying tree helps fertalize a new forrest... only that there is nobody out there jumping at the chance to buy/build and a parking lot is a quick and cheap way for the struggling owner to offset the cost of propety tax for otherwise vacant land.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by dhottawa729

... only that there is nobody out there jumping at the chance to buy/build and a parking lot is a quick and cheap way for the struggling owner to offset the cost of propety tax for otherwise vacant land.

Which is what i've been saying.

[sjuser23]

So how do we entice someone to build rather than leave an empty lot? Let's not give an easy answer like "throw taxpayer dollars at it" but how could we design program that would give the necessary push or incentive for these spaces to be filled and not with ugly parking lots? Tax holiday on new building gradually working up to full tax rate? How do you incent people or landlords towards investing in a building or lot, rather than receiving an economic benefit from not investing or leaving a vacant lot?

[Sabien]

A bigger concern, in my opinion, is the future parking lot facing Kings Square (a.k.a. 'the old Paramount Theatre').

That will be the figurative blemish on end of our nose. At least the corner of Charlotte and Princess is more of a freckle up near the hair line.

It will take a lot of time but I'm hoping Mr. Norton and his crew will begin the process of turning this pimply kid into the hot stud we all know Saint John to be.

[Ire Narissis]

Originally Posted by Sabien

A bigger concern, in my opinion, is the future parking lot facing Kings Square (a.k.a. 'the old Paramount Theatre').

That will be the figurative blemish on end of our nose. At least the corner of Charlotte and Princess is more of a freckle up near the hair line.

It will take a lot of time but I'm hoping Mr. Norton and his crew will begin the process of turning this pimply kid into the hot stud we all know Saint John to be.

I love the Paramount and I really want to see it restored. It's a real shame the money just isn't there. :/

[Steelcowboy]

For those who are interested, I got this from a CP conductor who tracks shipments for me.

"A train 606-245 showing on the line-ups in Wisconsin when I checked earlier. This #606 has a profile from New Town, ND to St. Luc, PQ with interchange to the MMA for furtherance to Irving Oil in Saint John, NB. Planned departure ex-New Town at 0930 Saturday AM and projected arrival into St. Luc next Tuesday evening (June 5th). Give the Maritime Boys a heads-up if you want!"

PS for those who watched CTV news on Wednesday and sw the clipping about a TEST TRAIN arriving from North Dakota...well the TEST is the routing not anything to do with the contents of the railcars. Railroads do this to decide the haulage agreements and the routing which the shipper will decide to take. This test would be deemed as a failure, a UNIT train --which is a train that contains ALL the same product or similiar should arrive as a unit to the destination, the current test had the train split into 3 parts and take 3 days to arrive at the destination, this train was also shipped by 5 different railroads, BNSF-CSXT-PanAM-MMA-NBSR. the more direct and quickest routing would have been BNSF-CN(at Chicago) to Saint John. This train that is arriving next week is originating on the CP in North Dakota and will remain on CP property right through to Saint John....even though its owned by MMA or NBSR...CP will always have grandfather rights to shipping its cargo on that line through hauling agreements settled at the time of the sale of the rail.

Once Saint John's Irving plant sets itself up to unload these cars..it will be a fluid operation were cars arrive, get unloaded and return to North Dakota.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Steelcowboy

For those who are interested, I got this from a CP conductor who tracks shipments for me.

"A train 606-245 showing on the line-ups in Wisconsin when I checked earlier. This #606 has a profile from New Town, ND to St. Luc, PQ with interchange to the MMA for furtherance to Irving Oil in Saint John, NB. Planned departure ex-New Town at 0930 Saturday AM and projected arrival into St. Luc next Tuesday evening (June 5th). Give the Maritime Boys a heads-up if you want!"

PS for those who watched CTV news on Wednesday and sw the clipping about a TEST TRAIN arriving from North Dakota...well the TEST is the routing not anything to do with the contents of the railcars. Railroads do this to decide the haulage agreements and the routing which the shipper will decide to take. This test would be deemed as a failure, a UNIT train --which is a train that contains ALL the same product or similiar should arrive as a unit to the destination, the current test had the train split into 3 parts and take 3 days to arrive at the destination, this train was also shipped by 5 different railroads, BNSF-CSXT-PanAM-MMA-NBSR. the more direct and quickest routing would have been BNSF-CN(at Chicago) to Saint John. This train that is arriving next week is originating on the CP in North Dakota and will remain on CP property right through to Saint John....even though its owned by MMA or NBSR...CP will always have grandfather rights to shipping its cargo on that line through hauling agreements settled at the time of the sale of the rail.

Once Saint John's Irving plant sets itself up to unload these cars..it will be a fluid operation were cars arrive, get unloaded and return to North Dakota.

The refinery is already set up to unload crude and they have been purchasing it for a long time now from Alberta and Saskatchewan from orphan oilfields that don't have a pipeline to ship their product. Currently its a drop in the bucket compared to what they bring in by ship to Canaport but they want to greatly increase imports from the west. As you may be aware they are building an additional unloading terminal on the eastern end of the causeway to handle their additional purchase of western oil. Interestingly I saw tank cars coming from west Saint John (NBSR) and island yard in east Saint John. I also noticed NBSR shunters in the refinery (or is that because they run island yard on behalf of CN???).

[Steelcowboy]

yes, I had heard that they are upgrading and building new unloading facility, I think currently they can unload 70 cars per day, when the new facility is built they will be able to unload 192 cars per day. That is awesome!! especially when they were calling for 3 100 car trains per week, just from the BNSF railway ...last months TRAINS MAGAZINE had an article about the oil terminals in the midwest (North Dakota) both CP Rail and BNSF have terminals from Montana and throughout North Dakota (mainly ND). These Oil facilities are looking for terminals to unload or tranship their products, IRVING must have been approached and a deal was made...afterall, the terminal in Saint John is the largest refinery and tranship terminal in Canada. Despite what the environmentalists say, shipping by rail is very safe...the tank cars are well built to withstand most derailments and besides with quick transit from oil terminal to final destination isn't that long. I work for CN and we had heard that we are the ones shipping 3 trains of oil per week to Saint John but, I think Irving wanted to see if he could do it quicker through his own lines and he is testing the routing on his own lines. It won't matter, he'll be overwhelmed by the oil that will come to him either through MMA/NBSR from the CP or Via CN from the BNSF.

Saint John will truly be a busy port, especially with the potash that will also flow from the Sussex area. The tracks from Sussex to Saint John are pretty much all rebuilt and in very good shape, the 40 miles from Moncton to Saint John isn't bad at all but new welded rail will replaced the older bolted rail very soon.

[JRocca]

Originally Posted by sjuser23

So how do we entice someone to build rather than leave an empty lot? Let's not give an easy answer like "throw taxpayer dollars at it" but how could we design program that would give the necessary push or incentive for these spaces to be filled and not with ugly parking lots? Tax holiday on new building gradually working up to full tax rate? How do you incent people or landlords towards investing in a building or lot, rather than receiving an economic benefit from not investing or leaving a vacant lot?

The answers is quite simple and has nothing to do with money.it's the solution that's hard.
The answer is that people like YOU don't want to buy/rent what would be built there.It's all about the lack of market demand.
Developers build for YOU. They ask" "who would purchase a home or rent an apartment from me if I built it here and can I make a profit doing it?"
A buildable lot that remains vacant for a long time is usually located in an area of the community where people don't want to live or don't want tto pay a price or rent that generates a profit to the developer.
So, why is it profitable to build in Millidgeville but not in Lower West Saint John or lower Main street or other similar locations?
In the vast majority of the cases, people like you tell Developers that: " I wouldn't live there because of crime,or pollution, or bad services,or..."
So, if you want to develop vacant land you can easily do it-just solve the real and perceived problems that keeps people from wanting to buy there. So, offering a developer a token grant is a waste of money because the only one that will build there and take the money is the person that was going to build there anyway without the grant.
The Paramount Theatre does not fall in the same class.This property will remain vacant only if the owners wants it to be so.
The owner also owns the adjoining Service New Brusnwick Building. So, if the land stays vacant for a long time, it's likely because he has decided that it's more valuable to him as additional parking.
Keep in mind that he has not tried to sell the property to the public. This may also be an indication that he feels the property will continue to go up in value so why sell it now[especially if he doesn't need the cash}
Uptown Saint John approached him not the other way around. I believe that if the property was put up for sale at it's fair market value that it would sell and that it would be redeveloped.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Steelcowboy

yes, I had heard that they are upgrading and building new unloading facility, I think currently they can unload 70 cars per day, when the new facility is built they will be able to unload 192 cars per day. That is awesome!! especially when they were calling for 3 100 car trains per week, just from the BNSF railway ...last months TRAINS MAGAZINE had an article about the oil terminals in the midwest (North Dakota) both CP Rail and BNSF have terminals from Montana and throughout North Dakota (mainly ND). These Oil facilities are looking for terminals to unload or tranship their products, IRVING must have been approached and a deal was made...afterall, the terminal in Saint John is the largest refinery and tranship terminal in Canada. Despite what the environmentalists say, shipping by rail is very safe...the tank cars are well built to withstand most derailments and besides with quick transit from oil terminal to final destination isn't that long. I work for CN and we had heard that we are the ones shipping 3 trains of oil per week to Saint John but, I think Irving wanted to see if he could do it quicker through his own lines and he is testing the routing on his own lines. It won't matter, he'll be overwhelmed by the oil that will come to him either through MMA/NBSR from the CP or Via CN from the BNSF.

Saint John will truly be a busy port, especially with the potash that will also flow from the Sussex area. The tracks from Sussex to Saint John are pretty much all rebuilt and in very good shape, the 40 miles from Moncton to Saint John isn't bad at all but new welded rail will replaced the older bolted rail very soon.

It's certainly a win-win. The $20 per barrel less for the North Dakota oil will save the Irving refinery from meeting the same fate as other refineries in its marketplace - closure. Plus it created some permanent jobs whereas unloading crude at Canaport into a monobuoy creates very little employment. Does this create jobs at the railroads?

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by JRocca

The answers is quite simple and has nothing to do with money.it's the solution that's hard.
The answer is that people like YOU don't want to buy/rent what would be built there.It's all about the lack of market demand.
Developers build for YOU. They ask" "who would purchase a home or rent an apartment from me if I built it here and can I make a profit doing it?"
A buildable lot that remains vacant for a long time is usually located in an area of the community where people don't want to live or don't want tto pay a price or rent that generates a profit to the developer.
So, why is it profitable to build in Millidgeville but not in Lower West Saint John or lower Main street or other similar locations?
In the vast majority of the cases, people like you tell Developers that: " I wouldn't live there because of crime,or pollution, or bad services,or..."
So, if you want to develop vacant land you can easily do it-just solve the real and perceived problems that keeps people from wanting to buy there. So, offering a developer a token grant is a waste of money because the only one that will build there and take the money is the person that was going to build there anyway without the grant.
The Paramount Theatre does not fall in the same class.This property will remain vacant only if the owners wants it to be so.
The owner also owns the adjoining Service New Brusnwick Building. So, if the land stays vacant for a long time, it's likely because he has decided that it's more valuable to him as additional parking.
Keep in mind that he has not tried to sell the property to the public. This may also be an indication that he feels the property will continue to go up in value so why sell it now[especially if he doesn't need the cash}
Uptown Saint John approached him not the other way around. I believe that if the property was put up for sale at it's fair market value that it would sell and that it would be redeveloped.

The ultimate solution is to drive housing demand with job growth in quality high paying jobs.

[Steelcowboy]

Yes, the NBSR had hired new trainmen and CN has been hiring for the past couple years..also training new engineers. The NBSR had leased or purchased a few high horsepower 6 axle locomotives and a few 4 axle lower HP locomotives for the increase of traffic onto its lines...both in USA and Canada.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Steelcowboy

Yes, the NBSR had hired new trainmen and CN has been hiring for the past couple years..also training new engineers. The NBSR had leased or purchased a few high horsepower 6 axle locomotives and a few 4 axle lower HP locomotives for the increase of traffic onto its lines...both in USA and Canada.

The locomotive that pulls into Saint John with the oil - it it BNSF, PanAm or NBSR? Or do they switch during the routes? Also with the additional rail traffic with oil and upcoming additional potash - would it make it busier than Moncton as far as rail traffic goes? Any economic spinoff from that aside from hiring at RR?

[Steelcowboy]

Most likely its an NBSR engine that would be pulling it to the oil terminal. Saint John would almost definitly be the busiest rail terminal in New Brunswick followed closely by Moncton of course. Moncton sees trains to and from Halifax/Dartmouth both CN and VIA, a daily CN freight comes from Bathurst/Miramichi, at least 1 daily freight train each way from Toronto sometimes an extra east or west runs on that line that goes through Chipman, McGivney, Plaster Rock, Edmundston etc etc. I myself work a Plaster Rock turn, Sunday-Tuesday and Thursdays..working at the various lumber mills at Chipman, Deersdale and Plaster Rock/Wapske. The potash train which arrives late evening Monday-Friday starts in Moncton and picks up all its cargo at McCulley's (Sussex). They bring the cars to Courtenay Bay and haul back the empties to the mine. I wish more rail activity was in NB..too bad no rails are in Freddy or other parts of NB.

[kwajo]

That's a lot of great info on the rail lines in NB and terminal expansion in Saint John, thanks Steelcowboy!

[RR Drummer]

Originally Posted by kwajo

That's a lot of great info on the rail lines in NB and terminal expansion in Saint John, thanks Steelcowboy!

I agree, great info. I am happy this form of transportation is making a comeback. It's a far cry from years gone by but the economics seem to be working in the favour for increased rail activity. Lets hope this trend continues.

[RR Drummer]

So I have heard from an employee at Papa John's over on the West side that they are expanding East. They are opening up in the former Bulk Barn in the SCA plaza location on June 16th. Wow, lots of competition now for pizza business on the East side. It will be great for consumers.

[cdnguys]

New Stone on Courthouse - Possibly the most beautiful justice complex in Canada



Copper going on north side of building



Silver Jubilee Cruise Ship Terminal Under Construction